An Epidemic of Loneliness?

[00:00:00] The Why Curve, with Phil Dobbie and Roger Hearing.

[00:00:04] Christmas is over.

[00:00:05] Did you spend it with friends and family?

[00:00:07] Or were you among the 1 in 25 of us who Christmas alone?

[00:00:12] Loneliness is growing in Britain.

[00:00:13] Single-person households are on the rise.

[00:00:16] And it's not just the elderly.

[00:00:17] Young people are finding it increasingly hard to make social connections.

[00:00:21] So what is happening to our society?

[00:00:23] And what damage does it do to health as well as happiness?

[00:00:26] Why is Britain getting lonelier?

[00:00:29] The Why Curve

[00:00:32] So let me ask you a personal question.

[00:00:34] Because you more or less live on your own.

[00:00:36] I mean, you've got a few tenants.

[00:00:39] But do you ever get lonely?

[00:00:40] No, not particularly.

[00:00:41] No, I've got good friends.

[00:00:42] Lots of people I see all the time.

[00:00:44] And, you know, things are working.

[00:00:47] Relationships are going on.

[00:00:48] That kind of stuff.

[00:00:49] Because you're such a charismatic person, I guess.

[00:00:52] How could anyone not want to spend time with you?

[00:00:54] But there are a lot of people out there who are...

[00:00:57] Are...

[00:00:57] I mean, single-person households are clearly on the rise for all sorts of reasons.

[00:01:02] But people who don't have the connections for whatever reason.

[00:01:06] I mean, that's one of the things you want to find out, perhaps.

[00:01:08] But, you know, there are a lot of people on their own in one way or another.

[00:01:11] More than they used to be, I think.

[00:01:13] Yeah.

[00:01:13] I wonder how many of those, though, are on their own.

[00:01:16] Because they want to be on their own.

[00:01:17] Yeah.

[00:01:18] You know, there's a lot of people...

[00:01:19] I mean, certainly there's a large proportion of people who are in single-person households,

[00:01:24] single-person households.

[00:01:25] 6.4 million people, actually, who live on...

[00:01:28] Basically, a third of all the households in Britain are single-person households.

[00:01:31] And I think a lot of people just want to live on their own.

[00:01:35] Yeah.

[00:01:35] They don't want to share their house.

[00:01:36] Well, they do.

[00:01:36] And I think, also, it's the ways in which people connect.

[00:01:39] Because, I mean, the fact that we have now means of connection through social media or whatever,

[00:01:44] but they keep it at one remove, almost.

[00:01:46] You know, the idea of actually picking up the phone and speaking to people,

[00:01:49] or the idea of necessarily going out and meeting people in quite the same way,

[00:01:53] isn't as much on the agenda as it was because a lot of it's done on your phone.

[00:01:57] But it's not the same, is it?

[00:01:58] Well, that's the problem.

[00:02:00] So, I mean, I'm not lonely because I'm busy.

[00:02:04] Yes.

[00:02:04] But I do...

[00:02:05] You have a family around you.

[00:02:06] I've got a family.

[00:02:07] Exactly.

[00:02:08] That's right.

[00:02:08] In fact, some people would say, actually, I wish I was lonely more of the time.

[00:02:11] You've got a kind of support structure, I think we might say.

[00:02:13] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:13] Which is important for you, particularly.

[00:02:15] Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:15] Because otherwise, you know, I mean, it would just go to pieces, wouldn't it?

[00:02:18] But, I mean, when I lived in Australia, it was a different stage in life,

[00:02:21] but I had lots of friends.

[00:02:22] And we used to go out a great deal.

[00:02:23] I don't go out that much these days.

[00:02:25] I do sort of hanker for those days, but everyone's too busy.

[00:02:29] Yes.

[00:02:30] Well, a lot of people are, but also...

[00:02:32] At least that's what they tell me.

[00:02:33] Yeah.

[00:02:33] Well, yes, there is that.

[00:02:34] Yeah.

[00:02:34] I've had words, but anyway, the situation is, I think,

[00:02:39] that people don't feel the same sense of community again,

[00:02:42] also, that people used to in many ways.

[00:02:45] It's true.

[00:02:45] I remember going, you know, when I was in London, working in London,

[00:02:47] I was surprised how isolated everyone was within their own place in a street,

[00:02:53] whereas in other parts of the world where I've worked and lived,

[00:02:56] people tend to commune with the people who live around them.

[00:02:59] So I think those kind of things, and I think that has changed.

[00:03:00] It's got worse, if anything.

[00:03:02] Yeah.

[00:03:02] People don't talk to their neighbours.

[00:03:04] And so, yes, the online community, which is a bit of a false community in some ways,

[00:03:08] has replaced that geographic sense of community.

[00:03:10] And that is a shame, isn't it?

[00:03:11] Yeah.

[00:03:12] And that does mean that people...

[00:03:13] Because in that geographic community, if there was someone who lived in a house on their own,

[00:03:16] then everyone would, you know, I imagine, would be looking after them.

[00:03:19] Or, you know, they could go and sit in the pub and there'd be people there to talk to.

[00:03:22] Well, pubs, I mean, that's another thing that's begun to fall apart.

[00:03:25] And I think one of the things that would be interesting to hear from our expert,

[00:03:27] and I'm home, but one of the issues is men who don't have the same social networks as women in quite the same way.

[00:03:33] And whereas the pub used to be the place for that, a lot of pubs are closing down.

[00:03:37] It doesn't work like it used to.

[00:03:39] Yeah.

[00:03:39] So I think all these are coming together.

[00:03:40] And it's not just, in a way, a psychological problem.

[00:03:43] It is that.

[00:03:44] It's to do with how it affects people's health.

[00:03:46] People on their own don't live as long.

[00:03:48] Yeah.

[00:03:48] Well, that's very true as well.

[00:03:49] Lots of research pointing to that.

[00:03:50] So 7.1% of all people, that's 3.8 million people in the country,

[00:03:54] according to some figures from the ONS, just going back to 2022.

[00:03:57] So not that old.

[00:03:58] 3.8 million people experience chronic loneliness.

[00:04:02] So these are the people who are really...

[00:04:03] And then almost half of us are lonely some of the time.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] But it's that, I think it's that 7% that you've got to worry about.

[00:04:09] And that's quite a high percentage.

[00:04:10] That's a lot, isn't it, when you think about it?

[00:04:11] And I'm stunned by that figure about how many people would have Christmas on their own.

[00:04:15] Because, you know, you assume that is when people get together.

[00:04:19] That's part of the way it is.

[00:04:20] But it's increasingly part of a society that isn't.

[00:04:23] Yeah.

[00:04:23] And you would feel very sad if you're in that situation.

[00:04:25] Well, let's talk to someone who's done a lot of research on that.

[00:04:27] And that's Louise Arsenault.

[00:04:29] She's Professor of Developmental Psychology at King's College London.

[00:04:32] She joins us now.

[00:04:33] So, Louise, you are one of those people, actually.

[00:04:35] Roger mentioned the number of people who spent Christmas Day on their own.

[00:04:40] You are one of those people.

[00:04:41] I am.

[00:04:42] I am.

[00:04:43] And it's interesting to see people's reaction when they ask me,

[00:04:47] what are my plans for the holidays?

[00:04:49] And I kind of say, well, usually I try to do as little.

[00:04:53] And I don't want to see people for at least three days during the holidays.

[00:04:58] And sometimes people's first reaction is kind of always like, oh, are you sure?

[00:05:02] And then I explain what I'm going to do.

[00:05:05] And then they said, well, actually, it sounds very nice.

[00:05:08] So what sort of things?

[00:05:10] Well, usually I try to do as little as possible.

[00:05:13] So I will either kind of read books.

[00:05:15] I will go for a walk.

[00:05:17] I will cook a nice meal.

[00:05:20] And I will do that for, I don't know, two or three days.

[00:05:23] But absolutely 25th, usually I try to be by myself.

[00:05:28] And after that, I will start seeing people again.

[00:05:30] And I will socialize.

[00:05:31] And I will do things.

[00:05:32] But for at least two or three days, I really kind of try to keep it to myself.

[00:05:38] So it's very much a choice, isn't it?

[00:05:39] That's the thing.

[00:05:40] You are choosing this.

[00:05:41] But do you think, I mean, are you unusual in this?

[00:05:44] Or have you realized, do you think the people who are hankering to have company all the time

[00:05:51] are people who haven't actually realized that they can be comfortable just with themselves

[00:05:54] doing their own thing?

[00:05:55] Well, I think that some people are very comfortable, you know, with their own companies.

[00:05:58] But I think that some people are just not.

[00:06:00] You know, and I think in some ways they're not one model that fits everybody.

[00:06:04] I think that people have to kind of realize at some point what suits them best.

[00:06:10] And then kind of, you know, just kind of agree to it.

[00:06:14] And then just kind of make plans accordingly.

[00:06:17] Take it with you.

[00:06:18] And is it, I mean, do you ever feel lonely though?

[00:06:21] I mean, when you're doing this or any other time, I assume you live on your own.

[00:06:25] Do you feel lonely?

[00:06:26] No, I don't actually.

[00:06:27] And I really do value, you know, the time that I am by myself.

[00:06:31] So I have, you know, very busy work and I have a busy kind of workplace and I interact

[00:06:38] with lots of people in my workplace.

[00:06:40] And I find that extremely stimulating.

[00:06:43] And I'm always kind of very enthusiast and I gain a lot of energy from that.

[00:06:47] But at the end of the day, I'm happy to, you know, just go by myself, you know, relax, having

[00:06:54] a long walk usually back from work.

[00:06:58] But I think it rarely happens.

[00:07:01] I think that sometimes I have to think about, oh, wow, you know, what I feel now is that loneliness.

[00:07:08] I have to query myself sometimes.

[00:07:10] And I think to give you an example, I think during lockdown, I was listening a lot to podcasts actually.

[00:07:16] And I realized that that was something new for me.

[00:07:19] And I thought that hearing people's voice was important suddenly.

[00:07:24] And I kind of thought to myself, is that a sign of loneliness actually?

[00:07:28] But I don't feel the distress which is associated with loneliness.

[00:07:32] I really have to kind of ask myself, is that loneliness?

[00:07:36] Yeah, well, we are doing our bit here on the wide cap.

[00:07:38] Yes, we're trying to.

[00:07:39] But there was a study by Pew Research in the United States in 2022.

[00:07:45] The major reason people were single was 44%.

[00:07:49] What do you reckon it was?

[00:07:51] The answer was they just like being single.

[00:07:53] Right.

[00:07:54] True and simple.

[00:07:55] Well, that's what they say.

[00:07:56] Well, yeah.

[00:07:57] I mean, 42% said they have more important priorities right now.

[00:08:02] 15% interestingly said they feel like they might be too old to get a companion, which is a crazy attitude.

[00:08:10] But you know what?

[00:08:11] Strangely, I've not been very lonely very much at all because I've been a serial monogamist.

[00:08:17] And I went through a period of very, very short period between divorcing one wife and marrying the next one.

[00:08:24] And I did feel very lonely.

[00:08:25] I'm obviously one of those people in this.

[00:08:27] Which is kind of what we want to get into.

[00:08:29] Because, I mean, it's nice, obviously, to hear that people can be on their own and creatively and happily.

[00:08:34] But obviously, what we're talking about is loneliness.

[00:08:37] And it's something that you study.

[00:08:40] I mean, first, give us a sense of the problem.

[00:08:43] Is it something that is increasing?

[00:08:45] Particularly in Britain in the 21st century, are we seeing more loneliness than we've seen previously?

[00:08:51] Well, it's interesting that you use the word seen.

[00:08:53] So, I think it's probable that we are more aware of loneliness.

[00:09:00] And I think that there has been a huge increase in awareness of loneliness after the pandemic.

[00:09:08] But I'm not sure that we have strong enough evidence to show us that there was a peak or a rise in loneliness.

[00:09:16] And mostly because we don't necessarily have longitudinal research with good measures that follow groups of people pre-pandemic, during pandemic and after pandemic.

[00:09:26] So, it's really difficult to establish whether we can see a rise in loneliness across kind of different population.

[00:09:35] But I think that we are definitely more aware of loneliness, which I have to point out.

[00:09:42] For several years, it has been a problem that we identified with elderly group of people.

[00:09:50] So, we always associated loneliness, you know, with old age.

[00:09:55] And suddenly we kind of realized, oh, hang on, there are other groups and especially young people who do suffer from loneliness.

[00:10:03] And that kind of really pushed us to go beyond what we associate with loneliness in old age.

[00:10:11] So, things like bereavement, you know, having the, you know, children leaving the house and all that stuff, which are a situation that creates loneliness.

[00:10:22] But suddenly we had to go beyond that and say, wow, you know, young people who usually party, go to the pub, you know, at university and everything that we think.

[00:10:32] It's usually the most social period of their life.

[00:10:35] But actually, a lot of them are feeling lonely.

[00:10:38] Yeah, well, I'm hearing a lot, actually.

[00:10:40] Well, first of all, I went to my old university and the campus is dry.

[00:10:44] I was shocked.

[00:10:45] There's no alcohol being consumed on the campus.

[00:10:48] And then I talked to, you know, people I know, you know, friends of my kids or my cousins.

[00:10:54] And they're saying, yeah, you know, people don't go out much at university anymore because they can't afford to because they've got these massive debts.

[00:11:01] Whereas, of course, you know, in the golden days.

[00:11:03] But they can communicate in ways.

[00:11:04] I mean, you know, with social media or on their mobiles.

[00:11:07] It's not quite the same, is it, as going out and socializing.

[00:11:10] I wonder whether that's people could.

[00:11:12] But I suspect, I mean, you know, let's talk to the expert here.

[00:11:17] But I suspect that, you know, people communicating on social media is not as fulfilling a relationship as, you know, going out and, you know, discussing the meaning of life over a few pints.

[00:11:28] Is that what it is?

[00:11:29] Is it that the mechanisms that kept people, younger people, interacting with each other aren't there anymore?

[00:11:35] Well, I think that, you know, we talk about social media and I think that social media has been very helpful, you know, to keep people together, people communicating.

[00:11:43] But I think it's not really helpful with establishing new meaningful relationships.

[00:11:49] So, you know, it's helpful on the one hand, but it's not necessarily so helpful on the other hand.

[00:11:54] And it's the depth of the relationship as well, isn't it?

[00:11:58] So are you good?

[00:11:59] Yes, absolutely.

[00:11:59] Because loneliness is really the gap between what you want out of relationships and what you get.

[00:12:07] So I, you know, I think that it's that.

[00:12:10] It's not social isolation, which is an objective measure of, you know, the absence of people around you, the absence of social network around you.

[00:12:19] But loneliness is really what you, the difference between what you want out of relationships and what you get.

[00:12:27] Well, take us through what you've, because you've done some research in this, as you say, with young people.

[00:12:31] What have you found?

[00:12:32] Well, we do find that we are absolutely right to worry about young people.

[00:12:38] So, young adults.

[00:12:41] So, you know, in the early 20s, you know, because they are the group, age group that suffer the most about feeling lonely.

[00:12:52] So when we look at, we have a large epidemiological study.

[00:12:58] And when we look at factors or very, yeah, factors that are associated with feeling lonely, we see that you do have a lot of poor factors.

[00:13:11] So poor outcome, including mental health.

[00:13:14] So quite often loneliness is associated with symptoms of anxiety, of depression, but also prospect for the future.

[00:13:21] So employment prospects, how people kind of see their prospects for, you know, being employed and what they can provide, you know, contribute to the job market and stuff like this.

[00:13:35] So I think that, so that is an important thing.

[00:13:39] So when someone kind of does confide that they feel lonely, I think that we should be concerned because that could be a flag.

[00:13:47] Like loneliness doesn't tend to leave a mark that is kind of very long lasting.

[00:13:54] But I think it is a factor that we must consider when someone says, yeah, I feel lonely.

[00:14:00] What do they mean when they say that?

[00:14:02] So do they mean that they, at that age, in your early 20s, are they saying they're lonely because they don't have any friends?

[00:14:09] Are they saying they're lonely because they are looking for a partner and they can't find a partner?

[00:14:14] You know, what is it that's driving that loneliness?

[00:14:17] I think it's all of what you're saying, actually.

[00:14:19] And also, I think that it could be that they feel that they don't belong.

[00:14:23] So when you think about people at university, they're always kind of surrounded with people.

[00:14:27] But sometimes, you know, people who kind of come from afar to kind of join university,

[00:14:33] they left behind lots of good established relationship.

[00:14:37] And then they just don't find their feet in this new kind of social network.

[00:14:41] You know, people who party, maybe that's not what they're into and they just cannot find their niche.

[00:14:46] And they're, you know, and it's the same as well for work.

[00:14:50] So people sometimes, they don't feel that they belong into an organization where they work.

[00:14:55] So loneliness in the workplace is also something which is meaningful.

[00:15:00] But I don't think that there is only one definition or one driver for loneliness.

[00:15:07] I think it is kind of quite a lot of different things.

[00:15:11] And probably it is why it's difficult to measure.

[00:15:15] So it's something which is very subjective.

[00:15:18] I mean, one of the things that occurs to me from what you're saying there is you've got your definition of loneliness.

[00:15:24] I think, if I'm right, was the difference between expectation in terms of relationships and what you get.

[00:15:28] And one of the things with young people, particularly in their 20s, you know,

[00:15:31] they see everybody on Facebook or not Facebook these days, but Instagram, partying, having a wild time.

[00:15:38] As a fear of missing out, I imagine is a big thing.

[00:15:42] FOMO.

[00:15:43] And also, you know, this is how I should be living.

[00:15:46] Actually, I'm not living like that.

[00:15:47] That's why I feel lonely.

[00:15:49] So that absolutely can be a part of that.

[00:15:52] So I think that social media, you know, along with other factors, could be a driver for loneliness.

[00:16:01] But I don't think it's necessarily the only one.

[00:16:05] But is technology, in a broader sense, part of the problem as well in that, you know, when we used to go to, you know,

[00:16:12] a long, long time ago in the dark ages when Roger and I were at university, very different university.

[00:16:17] Yes, yes, yes.

[00:16:18] It was a bit better than mine.

[00:16:20] But, I mean, you used to go out to, you know, you had to go to lectures.

[00:16:25] You'd meet people in the library.

[00:16:28] Basically, you'd get up in the morning, you'd go to university, and you'd come home at the end of the day.

[00:16:32] I think these days, you know, lectures very often are online.

[00:16:35] People are working from home, even though they're at university.

[00:16:38] All of that whole social gathering.

[00:16:40] I mean, basically, if you wanted to pick up girls, you used to go and hang around the library and look intelligent.

[00:16:45] You know, that used to be the way you'd do it.

[00:16:46] Did that work for you at all?

[00:16:47] A couple of times it is, yeah.

[00:16:49] The, you know, but I mean, these days, the library's empty, I'm led to believe.

[00:16:54] Not that I'm still hanging around those libraries, Roger, just in case.

[00:16:57] There's a whole story we don't want to uncover here, but let's move on.

[00:17:00] But, I mean, because people are, you know, working from home, even if they're at university.

[00:17:04] That seems to have, I mean, since the pandemic, that seems to have been what's happened.

[00:17:07] Yeah.

[00:17:07] Are you suggesting that actually to kind of cure, if I can use the word, loneliness, we

[00:17:13] should have more social spaces?

[00:17:15] Yes.

[00:17:16] Okay.

[00:17:17] That's interesting.

[00:17:18] That's interesting because if I can go back to my experience of spending Christmas by myself,

[00:17:26] I do not like to be around families during Christmas because it makes me, it highlights the fact that I do not have a family.

[00:17:37] So it makes me feel even, you know, it makes me feel lonely, actually, I think, to be around kind of families because suddenly, you know, I do feel, yeah, I don't have a family myself.

[00:17:49] And I think it is the same thing that we may have when we think about, or when we try to kind of address problems of loneliness at a community level.

[00:17:58] You know, we kind of have these kind of group, these kind of community center where people can go.

[00:18:04] And then when they kind of socialize with some people and they go back home, you know, then they kind of may reflect on what's missing.

[00:18:13] So I think that, I think on the one hand, this can be helpful for some people.

[00:18:19] But I think that another way that we can help people is really to reflect on the benefits of having social relationship and maybe changing the way that they appraise social relationships in their life.

[00:18:33] And also perhaps the way in which they understand them.

[00:18:35] I mean, is there a gender element in some of this?

[00:18:38] Because certainly if we go on to look, as I think we will, perhaps at older age groups as well, a sense that women are better able to maintain social networks and therefore less likely to be lonely.

[00:18:53] And that would apply, I guess, perhaps at the young age as well as the old age.

[00:18:56] Absolutely.

[00:18:57] So, yes, I think that we need to kind of consider a lot of different factors when we look into the drivers of loneliness.

[00:19:05] I think that living by yourself these days is quite a luxury and it's a choice for a lot of people.

[00:19:10] It's not something that, you know, we're stuck with.

[00:19:13] It's a choice for a lot of people.

[00:19:14] And I would say lots of women, you know, they make that choice.

[00:19:19] So gender is definitely something that we ought to consider.

[00:19:22] And I think that age as well.

[00:19:24] Are men less good at keeping that kind of thing?

[00:19:26] Because, I mean, women, as you say, choose and live on their own, but with good networks of friends with whom they keep in constant touch.

[00:19:32] But not so true for men?

[00:19:34] Yes, I would agree.

[00:19:35] I think that loneliness is not more prevalent in women than for men, at least in the age group that we are looking.

[00:19:44] So in young people, there is a tendency, I think, as they get older for men to kind of feel a bit more lonely.

[00:19:51] But usually I think that loneliness doesn't discriminate whether it comes to socioeconomic status or gender.

[00:20:01] But I think that obviously, I think that, well, obviously, I wouldn't say that word.

[00:20:07] I think that women are more skilled at starting a relationship and maintaining relationships.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:15] And, yeah, men, particularly as they get older, because they get crabbier and no one wants to be around them.

[00:20:20] Yeah.

[00:20:21] But also, yeah, I mean, we're talking about public spaces as a mechanism, Louise.

[00:20:25] And, of course, you'll probably be aware that they have recently or there's been a move to open up spaces in which men meet together to, you know, build stuff or make things or whatever it is.

[00:20:35] No, it's a deliberate policy in a lot of places as we're bringing people together.

[00:20:40] I mean, is that a mechanism that would work?

[00:20:43] Absolutely.

[00:20:43] I think that this is viewed as something very positive.

[00:20:46] You know, it's one way of tackling loneliness.

[00:20:49] But I think that we need to kind of be mindful that it may not be the best way for everybody.

[00:20:55] And for some people, it may even be harmful.

[00:20:58] You know, and this is not something surprising, I think.

[00:21:01] You know, it's not just about good intentions.

[00:21:03] When we kind of set up interventions, they need to be assessed to make sure that they do good, basically.

[00:21:10] But I think that kind of creating those space is a great initiative.

[00:21:16] And I think that and think as well that the people who kind of go to those kind of spaces, who kind of sign up to those activities may not be the one that suffer the most from loneliness.

[00:21:30] Quite often, the people who suffer the most, they're not capable of joining those groups.

[00:21:34] So I think that that will be good for a certain proportion of people.

[00:21:38] But I think that we need to be more creative and think about other ways to reach out, you know, other people for whom that doesn't fit.

[00:21:46] So for those people who feel like I just need to get out more, that would be the answer.

[00:21:49] But there's a figure I quoted just before we started talking to you from the ONS, the Office of National Statistics, that says that 7%, just over 7% of people, about 3.8 million people in the UK experience chronic loneliness.

[00:22:02] Yes, yes.

[00:22:02] So they're the ones we have to worry about.

[00:22:04] So you said an interesting thing about how if you are lonely because, in your case, because, you know, you go along to a situation where there's couples and families and you're not one of them, that you feel a little bit out of place.

[00:22:19] Yeah.

[00:22:21] And you've talked, you know, about people generally feeling out of place.

[00:22:24] And so you're sort of almost rubbing your nose in it.

[00:22:26] If you sort of like, you know, they get surrounded by people who are not like them.

[00:22:31] Exactly.

[00:22:31] So that's society's issue, isn't it?

[00:22:34] It's that we are not accepting that people, you know, there's nothing unusual about living on your own because one third of all households in the UK are actually single person households.

[00:22:42] So it's a minority, but it's quite a large minority.

[00:22:45] Yeah.

[00:22:47] So it's societal norms, isn't it?

[00:22:49] That's the issue.

[00:22:51] And people are paying the price for that by feeling as though they are, you know, awkward or different when they're not really.

[00:22:58] No, absolutely.

[00:22:59] And I think that's it.

[00:23:01] It's this feeling that you don't fit, you don't fit that model and people's reaction to that quite often, you know, and quite often it's not necessarily kind of you, you know, that is the initiator of that feeling.

[00:23:15] Sometimes it's people's reaction, you know, that kind of make you feel, oh, oh, maybe I shouldn't be that way or maybe I shouldn't be here or, you know.

[00:23:24] So I think it's definitely kind of a mismatch sometimes between the individual and social expectations.

[00:23:32] Is there also an issue?

[00:23:34] And I've been people talking to me about this a bit, which is if you have disabilities and I mean, that can be disabilities of old age, you know, simply not being able to go out very easily, not having a car, all the kind of things that you you get confined to your home.

[00:23:49] And maybe as a single person without actually wanting to, you just have no choice.

[00:23:54] Now, that must be an issue.

[00:23:56] Absolutely.

[00:23:56] So if you look at a group of older people, I think that one of the main poor outcomes associated with loneliness is really kind of physical health.

[00:24:08] And you probably kind of read figures that said that loneliness is a killer, even more so than cigarettes, for example.

[00:24:15] Is that really true?

[00:24:16] Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:16] I think so.

[00:24:18] And probably because I think that loneliness can have an impact on physical health via lots of different pathways.

[00:24:25] But you can think that if you live by yourself, you know, an elderly person who lives by themselves, they may not have, you know, those commodities, you know, someone to drive them to the hospital or someone to detect that their health is going down.

[00:24:40] But it also can suffer from mental health problems, depression that is associated quite often to to physical health problems.

[00:24:48] So there is quite a network of factors that can lead an older person who feels lonely to early death or to cardiovascular diseases.

[00:25:01] You know, that's that's what I've been reading.

[00:25:03] Harvard Business School study that people, women particularly in highly satisfying marriages, have a low risk of cardiovascular disease.

[00:25:12] And those who are going through a very rocky patch in their marriage suffer poorer health as a result.

[00:25:20] It's people keeping an eye on each other, isn't it?

[00:25:22] Reduced immunity.

[00:25:23] Well, I think it's more than just that, isn't it?

[00:25:25] Because it's I think it's it's also it's also just the way your body is reacting to stress within your body.

[00:25:32] Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:32] So we wouldn't kind of tend to see loneliness as being a stress, but actually it is, you know, or it has the same effect on the body or even, you know, mental health as well.

[00:25:45] You know, as, you know, a period of stressful, you know, episode.

[00:25:50] What about people who actually do have some sort of illness already that so there's like autism?

[00:25:56] Autism disabilities of various kinds.

[00:25:58] But also, you know, it's increasing.

[00:26:00] It seems to be a big rise of people with autism.

[00:26:02] I don't know whether that's well, they're being diagnosed with autism, ADHD, things of this nature, which are obviously in and of themselves make it difficult to make social connections.

[00:26:13] And also some of them don't want them, I suppose.

[00:26:16] But that must have a loneliness contingent as well in it.

[00:26:19] Yes, I think as part of our research, we showed that the young adults who had ADHD had higher rates of loneliness.

[00:26:25] And you may think, oh, yes, no, it's social isolation.

[00:26:29] Sorry, sorry.

[00:26:30] We do have, we also conduct studies on social isolation in young children.

[00:26:36] And what we found was that those young kids.

[00:26:42] So we kind of went in childhood at that point, even younger than those young adults.

[00:26:49] And what we found was we found an association between kids with ADHD and being isolated.

[00:26:55] And the issue with either loneliness or social isolation and what we think is an outcome is that quite often, such as mental health or physical health or neurodevelopmental disorders as ADHD and autism.

[00:27:12] But quite often, I think that it's a chicken and egg question.

[00:27:16] What comes first?

[00:27:17] So you would think being lonely can lead to depression, but actually being depressed can lead to loneliness.

[00:27:25] So it's really difficult to disentangle those two.

[00:27:29] And to be honest with you, the research that we have so far, I think, from longitudinal research really indicates that it goes both ways.

[00:27:39] But I can see it could become a downward spiral that if you became depressed, no one would spend time with you.

[00:27:44] So I mean, how do you break that cycle?

[00:27:46] Well, you know, I think that we've discussed kind of different ways.

[00:27:50] So it's really kind of important to either create spaces for people to kind of get together, creating opportunities for people to interact with others,

[00:28:00] but also maybe have kind of individual support for people who don't tend to appraise realistically their relationships.

[00:28:10] So maybe they have lots of friends who, you know, kind of really like them and they have good relationship.

[00:28:17] When they go back home, they value these relationships not in a way that is right.

[00:28:25] You know, they may kind of see those relationships negatively.

[00:28:28] Well, actually, it could be really fulfilling.

[00:28:32] So, I mean, as we kind of draw this to a conclusion, are we saying really that the problem, which clearly is there, is almost one of attitude and understanding in society,

[00:28:42] which is we have to understand there are some people perfectly happy, of course, to be on their own.

[00:28:46] That's fine.

[00:28:47] But also to understand that how we deal with relationships, how we analyse relationships and how we can improve that.

[00:28:57] I mean, it sounds terribly vague, but I suppose is it simply a way of understanding is the way to move towards less loneliness?

[00:29:05] Wow.

[00:29:06] That is a tough question.

[00:29:08] I know that's terribly, terribly vague, but I'm trying to find a way of getting a sense of what needs to happen to try and deal with the problem.

[00:29:14] Well, I think that, first of all, we probably need to move away from medicalising kind of loneliness.

[00:29:20] It's not a disorder in itself.

[00:29:22] It is a social problem, I think, which is influenced by lots of different factors.

[00:29:28] I think that we need to make sure that we prevent people from feeling lonely or young children from becoming isolated.

[00:29:39] Because when you look at what are the factors that predict some people from feeling lonely in midlife, sorry, in young adulthood,

[00:29:50] well, you see that there are difficulties in social difficulties in childhood.

[00:29:56] So I think that there are ways to kind of prevent people from developing loneliness and chronic loneliness,

[00:30:03] most specifically, as you mentioned before.

[00:30:07] So I think that prevention is really important.

[00:30:11] But I think as well that we need to kind of recognise social isolation or loneliness as being flagged,

[00:30:18] that, you know, things are not necessarily kind of going so well,

[00:30:21] and they open up the window for us to intervene.

[00:30:26] Sometimes people don't feel comfortable about their feelings of depression or anxiety,

[00:30:30] but they may feel OK about saying, yeah, you know, I feel lonely today.

[00:30:34] But we have to kind of take that seriously.

[00:30:38] And I think that maybe, yes, we need to kind of approach this from a societal point of view,

[00:30:42] you know, kind of saying, you know, what do we mean by loneliness?

[00:30:45] Is it something that we need to accept?

[00:30:48] Or is it a phenomenon which is associated with people's perception,

[00:30:54] you know, acceptance of different ways of living, basically?

[00:30:57] But how do you intervene?

[00:30:58] If someone feels as though they're a little bit different from the rest of society,

[00:31:01] they will push back at any idea that, you know, that they are,

[00:31:05] that they're different in that they're lonely as well.

[00:31:07] They're going, oh, no, no, no, I'm fine.

[00:31:09] And I wonder whether as well, you know, time is part of this.

[00:31:12] So the average person in the UK is working 36 hours a week.

[00:31:15] And, you know, and then you've got commute times and all that sort of stuff.

[00:31:19] It's very difficult.

[00:31:19] And then you're exhausted at the end of the week as well.

[00:31:21] And then I think people who are lonely perhaps say, well, OK, I'm just going to,

[00:31:24] I'll work a lot more because that's their way of pushing through.

[00:31:29] That's where the social interactions are.

[00:31:30] Absolutely. And these people can be in relationships.

[00:31:32] They can be in family.

[00:31:34] So it's not just people who live alone, but, you know, you can have people,

[00:31:38] you know, husbands and wives, you know, that have that long commute

[00:31:41] and then they go home and then they have to care for young children.

[00:31:44] So they don't have time to kind of socialize,

[00:31:47] although they live in a unit, in a family,

[00:31:49] but they can still feel a sense of great loneliness

[00:31:53] because they don't have time to kind of go beyond, you know, work and family.

[00:31:57] And I think a moment as well where it is a sensitive period for experiencing loneliness

[00:32:05] would be parenthood.

[00:32:07] You know, when people have young children,

[00:32:10] I think it is a time when parents may feel very lonely and isolated from others.

[00:32:17] Yeah, hard to socialize with your children.

[00:32:18] Yes, exactly.

[00:32:19] Because they have such different experiences.

[00:32:20] Well, it's very interesting to hear the different forms of loneliness.

[00:32:24] Yes.

[00:32:25] In a way that certainly, you know, it's opening up areas to me that I didn't really think about.

[00:32:29] As a problem, do you think it's getting worse or is it at a level it's always been at?

[00:32:35] Well, we don't have the evidence to kind of really support the fact that it's getting worse.

[00:32:39] So I would be, I know that some people are talking,

[00:32:43] oh my gosh, there's an epidemic of loneliness or there's a crisis, you know, loneliness crisis.

[00:32:49] And I'm kind of going, oh, I'm not too sure that we really have this,

[00:32:52] the evidence, the strong evidence to back this up.

[00:32:55] What I know is that we're a lot more aware of it.

[00:32:58] We're a lot more comfortable talking about it.

[00:33:01] But, you know, what I often do with my students as well,

[00:33:04] every time that we hear the word loneliness in a song,

[00:33:07] we have a discography of loneliness music.

[00:33:12] You know, it's always been there,

[00:33:14] but I think that we haven't kind of paid attention to it so much.

[00:33:19] It was something that was part of life and a little bit like bullying victimization,

[00:33:23] something I researched as well, you know, which was something that we've accepted.

[00:33:28] Recently, we kind of realized, oh, hang on, it could be kind of harmful to young kids.

[00:33:32] It's the same with loneliness.

[00:33:33] It's always been there.

[00:33:35] And then suddenly we kind of realize, oh, hang on.

[00:33:38] Well, actually, it may be a symptoms of something.

[00:33:40] Talking about it obviously makes a difference.

[00:33:42] And do you know what?

[00:33:43] You know, there were periods, I think, in my late teens and early 20s

[00:33:46] when I would feel lonely and actually listening to songs,

[00:33:50] sticking my headphones on and listening to songs,

[00:33:52] you know, the more maudlin, the better, the more songs about loneliness.

[00:33:55] You actually felt as though, you know, in a way it was quite recuperative.

[00:33:59] He's going to be promoting music radio shortly.

[00:34:00] You wait.

[00:34:02] Yeah, let's play a song now, shall we, Roger?

[00:34:04] Well, I think what we should say is thanks very much, Louise.

[00:34:08] You've taken us around all sorts of areas that I certainly wasn't aware of.

[00:34:12] And the way, as you say, talking about it, being aware of these things is part of trying to sort them out in some form.

[00:34:19] Enjoy the rest of your Christmas holidays.

[00:34:20] Thanks, Louise.

[00:34:21] Absolutely.

[00:34:22] Happy Christmas.

[00:34:23] Happy Christmas.

[00:34:24] Thank you.

[00:34:24] That was, I guess there's a bit of optimism in there.

[00:34:28] Well, there is, I think, being an understanding of what it is and the fact that social isolation isn't necessarily the same as loneliness.

[00:34:34] And you can be surrounded by people and be lonely as well.

[00:34:38] Even be in a family and be lonely.

[00:34:40] Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:40] But also that loneliness can be a factor of danger to people.

[00:34:44] You know, it is, it isn't.

[00:34:45] And funnily enough, what we're going to be talking about next week is danger.

[00:34:49] We're going to be talking about risk.

[00:34:50] What a segue.

[00:34:51] I know, I know.

[00:34:52] What could kill you in 2025?

[00:34:54] Right.

[00:34:54] How about that?

[00:34:55] Yeah, okay.

[00:34:55] Beyond, besides loneliness.

[00:34:57] Yes, well, quite.

[00:34:58] But we're talking about major existential risks, which has become an area of great study recently, actually.

[00:35:04] And someone from the Cambridge Centre that studies existential risks, you know, tell us what are the kind of things that could do away with us.

[00:35:10] Are we going to get hit by an asteroid?

[00:35:11] That sort of thing.

[00:35:11] Is AI going to finish us off completely?

[00:35:14] Yeah, well, that's a bit of a worry, isn't it?

[00:35:15] Yes.

[00:35:15] There's going to be some other horrible disease, worse even than COVID, that will wipe us out.

[00:35:19] Lots of things that could.

[00:35:20] And just to cheer you up, we will line them all up for you, for you to expect in 2025.

[00:35:25] Yeah, look forward to that.

[00:35:26] That's next week on the Y-Curve.

[00:35:28] If we're still here.

[00:35:29] If we're still here.

[00:35:29] That's right.

[00:35:30] Well, hopefully we haven't been wiped out by then.

[00:35:32] We'll catch you next week.

[00:35:33] Thanks for tuning in.

[00:35:34] The Y Curve.