Closing Credits?

[00:00:00] The Why Curve, with Phil Dobbie and Roger Hearing. Hollywood glitz and glamour at the Oscars. The triumphs, the disappointments, the dresses, the terrible speeches. And is this all a celebration of a dying art form? Cinema going in the US and the UK is in steep historical decline. Why? Well, streaming, COVID, increased ticket prices and the rise of another glitzy entertainment like video games.

[00:00:27] Even the razzmatazz about Barbie and Oppenheimer and James Bond just hasn't altered the trend. So are movies just moving into a different space, the home entertainment world of streaming? Or do we now prefer the interactivity of game consoles rather than passively viewing a story told to us in a big dark room? Are the end credits rolling for the movies? The why curve. So I'm not quite sure I totally agree with your premise that the movies are losing their way.

[00:00:55] Because I look at the numbers now, and obviously during the pandemic they were down because the cinemas were closed. So unless you broke in, you couldn't have anything. It wasn't possible, yeah. So they are now picking up, and they're not back where they were, but they are on the climb. And the forecasts I'm seeing show that it's going to keep on climbing. Well, I think that's over-optimistic. I mean, I think the problem is that there are so many alternatives. You can play games, you can watch things on streaming, you can do other things that simply are more attractive to other generations. People want events, though. Well, I'm not sure they do.

[00:01:25] But I guess the question is that we used to go and see big movies, didn't we? And I wonder now whether our tastes are so separate. You know, we've broken down into so many different segments. We all like so many different things because we've had so much choice. It's difficult to pull together. What was the last film you saw in the cinema? It was... Gee, that's a good question. I can tell you TV shows have been watching. Yes, that's the point, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:01:53] All of Us Strangers was the last one. But that was a while ago. That was probably a year ago. I went to see that. It wasn't a blockbuster movie. But I went because, well, my daughter drank me there. But also, it's an interesting storyline because it had you questioning stuff about what's really going on. But that was, as you say, more than a year ago. I just think the habit has begun to die. But anyway, let's talk to someone who studies this and can tell us a lot more and may be able to tell me whether I'm right or you're right. You're definitely right. Sarah Ankinson, who is Professor of Screen Media at King's College London. She joins us now.

[00:02:24] So, Sarah, I mean, first of all, Roger's saying, yes, you know, cinema's in decline. I'm looking at some numbers here that shows that, well, you know, it obviously took a hit for the pandemic. But it looks like, you know, if we look at the worldwide box office numbers, I mean, it did take a big hit from the pandemic. But it was rising a little bit before then. Not if you look over the last three decades. Sarah, bear me out on this. I mean, this is... And I see it clawing back now. Where are we, Sarah? What's happening?

[00:02:50] Yeah, so certainly cinema viewing figures haven't reached pre-pandemic levels. It did absolutely take a huge dent. And there's been lots of effort made by the cinema industry to bring back audiences to the auditorium. Because, of course, what happened in the pandemic is that online streaming, you know, grew. So, and that is where lots of cinema is happening. There's lots of film directors making films. Is that not cinema to you in the way that you're understanding it?

[00:03:16] Are you just counting it by box office, you know, people going to cinemas and buying a ticket or all the other ways that people can now access film and engage with? Well, I was going to say, and looking back, you know, perhaps over the longer period, you know, we know there were massive audiences in the war, but also in the 40s, 50s and 60s. It was a massive thing. But it has tailed off. The idea of everybody getting together on a Saturday night and going to watch the latest film, it doesn't seem to be quite part of the culture in the way it was, does it?

[00:03:44] Well, I mean, that applies to TV as well. You know, we all used to sit down as a family watching. So it's just another factor about we have all become, you know, families have become a little bit divided in their media consumption. My sense is that people are doing it less, but they're still doing it. So I think people are going for the big event releases, the big opportunities where cinemas are doing something extra, you know, making it a reason for why people would pay a premium price to go to the cinema.

[00:04:08] People keep it as a as a special occasion now rather than a routine, you know, habit, because they can still access films online in the ways that, you know, we've discussed through streaming platforms and so on. So I don't think people have stopped going. I think they're just choosing, you know, carefully when and where to go and what to see. Yeah. And the cost is different. And at the same time, people know that there are, you know, people pirate films. They can do that. It's very widespread. It's entirely illegal, of course, but it is widely done.

[00:04:38] And that or spending money to go down to the cinema and go into a big room with lots of other people. I mean, you can see why. But it's a cheap night out, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's well, the alternative is you go out for dinner and you spend 100 quid. You go to the movies and, you know, it depends on where you are. But sometimes, like, you know, even five pounds, I think was the last time I went to the movies. So that was a long time ago. No, it was in the channel. It was just a couple of weeks ago. But I mean, it's so it's not an expensive night.

[00:05:07] So, I mean, it's there's definitely a value proposition there for people still to go to the movies, isn't there? Well, I think so. And I think you're getting more for your money. If you look at film running times, which has been a key debate in the media recently, particularly with The Brutalist, I think it's 250 minutes long. Yes. With an interval, apparently. Longer. Yes. Yeah. There's an interval built into the actual film itself. There's a countdown clock that, you know, it's been edited in.

[00:05:32] So it was actually devised in that way so that people could have, you know, a leg stretch and go and get some food from the concessions. So. So, yeah, you're getting more for your money. Bigger films with bigger budgets are being made. So those moments when you do go are really memorable for people. You know, look at Wicked, for example. That was a huge cinematic event. But how does that compare with the big hits that we've seen in yesteryear? I mean, like, you know, how does it compare to Star Wars, for example, thinking about because I think that was the most popular.

[00:06:01] That was the biggest box office success at its time, wasn't it? Yeah. And I think with well, with like Wicked and Star Wars, these properties, they've got a whole kind of infrastructure ecosystem around them for fans and audiences to engage with outside of the cinema. You know, there's theme park attraction rides. There's, you know, spin off things on the web. There's fan generated content, people engaging with the narrative universe in many, many different ways.

[00:06:27] So cinema becomes part of this much bigger entertainment ecosystem that people are, you know, accessing at different points. Yeah. Star Wars is a great example of that because there's so much in that that universe, you know, games, merchandise and so on. But doesn't that isn't that part of the problem in the end? Because one of the spin offs, as you talked about, and indeed some of the things that's gone the other way as well, are games, video games. And there've been films made from video games. And lots of TV shows. Yeah.

[00:06:54] And these are perhaps more popular, perhaps more income generating than the big spectacular movies that they force us all to go and see. I think it's all part of the same, the same picture in terms of these, you know, big franchise media properties are kind of generating income from lots of different audience types. Not everybody wants to play a game, but other people might want to see, you know, the film or engage in a book or a comic book or something else related to that to that universe.

[00:07:22] So it sort of plays into that fanatical culture that, you know, supports so many of these different media properties. I feel like this is actually, you know, aside from Roger's proposition that it's all doom and gloom and, you know, I feel like it's a bit of a golden age. I mean, if we take cinema and streaming together, I mean, there's more content than ever before. I feel like production values are the best they've ever been. I think there's some clever ideas in movies. I'm not a big fan of superhero type stuff.

[00:07:52] Well, that's been one of the big. But that seems to have died down a little bit now and we seem to be getting, you know, truly good scripts coming, you know, clever scripts coming out. What are you saying? I don't know. Do you know that my big problem is I'm hopeless with movie names. That's it. I'll get to the end of it and someone will go, I saw a good movie yesterday. What was it called? I don't know. I wasn't paying that much attention at the beginning. But I mean, what you reckon, Sarah, is I feel like, you know, the craft has improved a bit, hasn't it? Oh, the quality that you can access, you know.

[00:08:19] I mean, Netflix started off, didn't they, with their first original films. I think it was in 2015, Beasts of No Nation. And then you had filmmakers following suit when they could see that audiences were, you know, migrating from auditoriums to online television platforms. You had Alfonso Cuaron with Roma in 2018. Then you had the wonderful Disclaimer that's on Apple TV.

[00:08:41] And they're all kind of, yeah, they're very cinematic and can be viewed in the cinema on the big screen format that they were designed for, but also on the television because they're obviously serials, you know, with multiple episodes. So I think there's so much kind of choice now than there was. There was obviously a bit of a dip because of the writer's strike and the actor's strike in America. But things have really started to pick up again where you really are sort of spoiled for choice as a humorous film. So what's the direction of travel?

[00:09:10] Is it that more and more is going to be intended primarily for streaming? And that's where the money will go. That's where the audiences will go. And fewer people go to cinemas or it'll just keep going exactly the same. There'll be a balance and people will still get a cinema. How do you see it playing out? Yeah, I think it's a sort of an ecosystem. So there'll be lots of different.

[00:09:33] And I hope this is what I would want, because that would be really kind of rich, you know, that you have these different opportunities and ways and venues that you go to see films. So I think cinema will absolutely survive, but they'll just be it'll be down to choice. Do you want to go and watch this film or do you even want to go and watch a television series in a cinema? I went to see Disclaimer in a cinema as opposed to on television. So I think, yeah, obviously cinemas, there'll be closures as there has been.

[00:10:01] But I think as a medium, it will still it will still survive and find ways to survive in the way that it's doing now by big event releases that that kind of prop cinemas up. I know. Are those I mean, the reason I was asking about Star Wars is are those big event releases? Are they as big or are that you know, do they do they match up to movies like Star Wars in terms of numbers or is a big release these days? I don't know, half the size of what it used to be, for example.

[00:10:28] I'd have to look up the figures for Wicked, but I'm sure that was bigger than one of the biggest. So I think, yeah, they do stack up, but they are one off, you know, so they are far between. We have to wait another year for the next. Because it was Barbenheimer, which was the thing, you know, Barbie and Oppenheimer at the same time and being event must see things. And they weren't for a long time on streaming either. Yeah, I tried to watch Oppenheimer. I watched it at home.

[00:10:56] And there's a reason, actually, for an old bloke to go off to the movies because you do actually tend to stay awake. I watched Oppenheimer and fell asleep in the middle of it because it's so bloody long. So but in a cinema, actually, it would be more of an event. And I'm sure I'd stay awake. You get a more comfortable seat to sleep in. Yeah, that's right. They're comfortable at home. That's the problem. But doesn't it all come down. It was designed for the cinema because it used 17 millimeter, you know, the large format.

[00:11:21] So it was absolutely kind of encouraging people to go to the cinema to appreciate the kind of the, you know, the resolution and the size, just like the Brutalist was as well. I think Dune Part 2 are using these big cinematic formats, absolutely, to give a reason of why you would go to see them. And Scorsese, Killers of the Flower Moon, again, an example of a really long film. But again, you know, a reason to give people to, you know, pay the money for the ticket. So I saw Star Wars. I won't talk about Star Wars anymore.

[00:11:49] It's making sound like it's the only movie I've ever seen. We're talking about almost 50 years ago. I know, exactly. I'm just at the point. Every time you say Star Wars, I say Wicked. We are. Yeah, we'll move on then from this. But when I saw Star Wars, it was at the Odeon Cinema in Stockton-on-Tees in the north of England. And there was only, it was a huge cinema and it was just one screen. And now, obviously, every cinema is a multi-screen, some of them quite small. And I quite like that because I think, you know, I haven't been to the movies a great deal.

[00:12:16] My daughter took me off to see All of Us Strangers, which I thought was a brilliant movie. But it's a bit niche, isn't it? And the ability for you to, but it's one of those great movies that you ended up talking about. And afterwards, and I always think that's a great movie where you don't just walk out and they go, that's it. You have to sit and have a coffee and talk about what you've just seen. That's, to me, is a sign of a good movie. But cinemas obviously need to accommodate a whole variety of tastes.

[00:12:43] And actually sort of breaking down into smaller cinemas has obviously been quite a revolutionary move for the industry, hasn't it? Yeah, and you get often, you know, the boutique cinemas offer more of an experience for you when you go and buy drinks and nice food and take it into, you know, luxurious seating. So I think they've recognised that, you know, that's a sector of the market to kind of, yeah, play to. When they bring the food to you and then the movie finishes and you realise you're walking out with half your dinner down your front.

[00:13:11] Yeah, but that's a common experience for you anyway. It is anyway, but in the dark, it just adds to the problem. But I mean, are cinemas having to do more of that sort of stuff? Are they having to find new ways beyond the movie of trying to bring people back away from their streaming services? Yeah, and engage them in more, you know, kind of novel and innovative ways. I don't know if you've heard of the organisation Secret Cinema, you know, which began nearly 20 years ago now, offering immersive cinema screenings. They first showed the Gus Van Sant film Paranoid Park in a railway tunnel.

[00:13:41] They, you know, lit fires, had gate borders because that was the, you know, the mise en scene of the film. It was a train station that grew into, you know, a phenomenal amount. And now I'll mention Star Wars because they released Star Wars Empire Strikes Back as an immersive film screening and broke box office figures for weeks in terms of the income they generated. Because they had, I don't know, maybe 3000 people going a night to this huge experience that they'd built a physical set version of Star Wars.

[00:14:10] And people would go in and interact with the characters and, you know, there were stormtroopers and everything around. And so that was hugely successful. Unfortunately, they were hit by, you know, the pandemic in terms of their growth. But they were just moving into television properties like Stranger Things and Bridgerton, where people are willing to pay, you know, upwards of 80 pounds to go for an extended experience in a fictional environment and then kind of sit down and watch the film. You just mentioned a couple of great TV shows there.

[00:14:38] And they are movie quality TV shows, aren't they? And that's where the difference is. I wonder whether that makes it harder for the cinema because we are getting movie production values applied to TV shows, which didn't used to be the case. At home, you can get massive great TV screens with cinema style sound around if you really want to put your money into it. Yeah. I was trying to get a whole wall of pick and mix in the front room, but my wife wasn't. Yeah. So I can't completely replicate the experience.

[00:15:05] But I mean, isn't that that is an issue, is that the production values on TV now as good as movies? I think that's going to change what you can see in films or in cinemas. Sorry, because it already is. You can go and see they have those viewing watch parties where you can go and watch things like Stranger Things and Bridgerton. They've been screened in cinemas. And then you've got the whole event cinema ecosystem with things like, you know, the National Theatre and the Met Opera broadcasting live, you know, from the stage into cinemas, which has sort of been a growth area.

[00:15:34] They have the Taylor Swift live concerts where people would go and watch, you know, the concert if they couldn't afford a ticket. So you have this diversity of content that includes television, actually, and live events and sports coverage. So cinemas have really kind of adopted and responded to that. That's interesting, because I would go and see with the kids when the new Stranger Things comes out. Yeah, I'd go and see that at the cinema.

[00:15:58] But it's the money in all this that's really interesting, Sarah, because, you know, you said, you know, there are growth areas and things. But if you compare the actual amounts of money in, say, the gaming industry compared to Hollywood now, it is much, much bigger. The investment is bigger and the income is bigger. So is there an issue that really when it comes to creativity and screens, that's where it's going to be in the games industry much more than it will be in movies?

[00:16:24] Well, it's an interesting point, because the convergence between cinema and games, you know, has been on the rise since the 90s in terms of the technology that underpin them and how, you know, those films and games are made in almost exactly the same way. Now, you might have heard of something called virtual production, which uses the same technology on which games are built. They're called real time game engines, you know, to generate live environments that performers perform within the way that they're edited,

[00:16:52] is using absolutely that same infrastructure and then owned by the same kind of media organizations and studios, you know, such as Sony and so on. So I think, like I was saying, you know, there's a whole range of ways you can interact. But in terms of the money, it's going to the same same places. Ultimately, if you're watching a film property or playing a game, you're buying it from the same people.

[00:17:15] So that's the direction of travel in the end is going to be this convergence, you're saying, and that the next generation will almost expect that kind of interactivity, perhaps. Because that's the thing, the difference in the passivity of just watching a film and interactivity where you actually affect the outcome. Yeah, absolutely. The expectations have really gone up, you know, with those immersive experiences. And, you know, Netflix has them.

[00:17:38] They're building, I think, in America, a kind of a Netflix experience theme park almost so that you can go and experience these things. So the demand from audiences to, you know, engage at a deeper level in these films, properties, games, et cetera, I think is only going to grow. Yeah, and gamers do watch movies, don't they? I don't think it is one thing or the other. I think it's, I mean, it's games and movies, I mean, maybe at the expense of going outside or eating proper food.

[00:18:07] But, I mean, games and movies seem to sit side by side for a lot of gamers, I think. Absolutely. Yeah, they do. And what about the people who make this stuff or involved in it, actors? Because, again, you know, part of the gaming thing is that they capture, they motion capture people, actors, I suppose, but can then do pretty much what they want with them. And we constantly hear, I mean, it was part of the massive strike, the saga after a strike, of course, in Hollywood was the suggestion what AI could do to that. But, again, you know, actors are at the core of movies.

[00:18:37] Is that going to keep going? I'm sure it is. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they also, they use their voices, don't they, in games now as well, because they've been so, becoming so close in terms of visual fidelity games to almost being like, you know, motion film in a way. So, no, I think there's a big economy of that as well. You know, fans of film stars and celebrity that hasn't gone away and the craft, you know, live performance in films.

[00:19:04] There's still, although we've talked about that, you know, very high tech move towards big budget blockbuster type films built on games and so on, there's still the independent edge. I mean, look at, you know, 28 years later, the new Danny Boyle film that's coming out. That's actually shot on an iPhone. So it's at the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of technology and all in real world locations with real actors.

[00:19:28] So, again, it's part of this kind of what should be a healthy ecosystem where there's a place for all of these different types of productions. I don't know if you've been watching Severance. I was, which I'm just enthralled by. I'm a bit annoyed I've got away every Friday for the next episode because I've caught up with it all. But I, you know, neat idea, clever idea. But I was surprised to discover how much it actually costs per episode. I was thinking what I like about this is it looks like it's really cheap to make because it's the same set over and over again.

[00:19:58] And it's a handful of actors. I don't think I'd heard of any of them before this movie. So I thought they probably got them cheap as well. But it's costing millions of pounds per episode. I'm not really quite sure. I get confused by how much money is soaked up in this industry. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, it is a brilliant. It's such a cinematic series, isn't it? Every shot is kind of beautifully crafted and staged.

[00:20:18] And, yeah, so I can understand where that money is going into the, you know, to make something look kind of simple and seamless actually is quite complex and difficult in many cases. And it's interesting, the funding on that, you know, the cost of it is obviously high. But Apple, obviously, it's Apple, so they've got loads of money anyway. But they have a subscription model that does them OK. It's a guaranteed income.

[00:20:42] And when you're making something like that, if you can actually predict what your income will be in that way, it's rather easier, perhaps, than making a big Hollywood blockbuster and not really knowing who's actually going to turn up and watch it at all. You're absolutely right. Yeah, that is absolutely why their model is so successful.

[00:20:58] I guess the flip side of that is for audiences who are kind of, you know, split and dispersed across channels, having to make choices about which platform they're going to subscribe to because they all come with a cost and costs that always seem to be increasing. But it's very difficult when you want to watch a film, you know, or a television series to make the choice because, yeah, they're likely to be on different channels each time across, you know, Amazon and Netflix. And they're all American.

[00:21:24] So does that make it very difficult for the UK film industry? I know we have a big part to play in some of these productions, but in terms of the revenue? Yeah, yeah, because so much of the production is happening in the UK because of the favourable tax break systems. You know, I'll mention Wicked again. That was filmed in the UK. But so much of this is and their studio capacity is, you know, growing from what we have.

[00:21:50] And also post-production and VFX is also, you know, a huge, a huge industry. So in terms of, yeah, that side of things, the UK isn't certainly isn't losing out. Is the power there as well? I mean, OK, they use the locations. They use the perhaps the actors. British actors seem to be having a fine old time at the moment. But is it? Is there the best in the world, Roger? That's why they're the best actors in the world. But is but Sarah is is Hollywood, you know, the celebration of the Oscars was very much about Hollywood. Yes.

[00:22:18] Is it still the real centre globally of the film industry? Yeah, I think so. Very much is the case in terms of what we've been speaking about today. Obviously, there are other, you know, international film markets across the world. But perhaps we don't access them. I mean, Netflix as a platform has been great in bringing, you know, more diverse content, more kind of international world cinema, international releases that we can now access through this platform that we wouldn't have had before.

[00:22:48] But no, the picture that we're kind of talking about today is very much dominated. But are the big players too dominant? So if you are a small independent producer in the UK, are you going to be able to raise the capital? Are you going to be able to to get the distribution channels in place? You know, or do you have to go cap in hand to to these big players in the United States with you with your idea and basically sell your soul? Is the is the industry becoming concentrated in that way?

[00:23:16] Yeah, it's very difficult in the UK film. Yeah, it's very underfunded. It's it's widely known, particularly independent productions. productions. There's been, you know, the rhetoric around tools and things being more accessible. Like I mentioned, you know, you can film films on an iPhone. You can access all of the editing material for free on your on your laptop. Those games engines that we talked about where you can make films are readily available. So the tools are more democratic.

[00:23:45] And lots of people talk about that, you know, that anyone can make a film now. But it's absolutely the the channels that are challenging that you mentioned, how secure funding for that, how to actually get it made, produced and so on is is really challenging. It'd be handy, wouldn't it? If we had a UK Netflix, if one of these one of these players that could aggregate content from brick box was the thing that they tried to go. And that didn't work really, did it, Sarah? No, that's true. Yeah. Is that still available? Well, there's a question, isn't it?

[00:24:14] You know, the fact that we don't know. Yeah. It speaks volumes. So how do you say I mean, projecting forward now, how do you see it all going through? Do you see in the moment there's certainly challenges for different streamers? Obviously, Netflix been around a long time. You've got Apple. You've got Paramount coming around as well. And obviously, Disney Plus, there's a bit of a struggle and the extent to which they are subscription funded or advertising funded or part advertising, part subscription.

[00:24:43] Something like Amazon Prime, you have to pay for half the content that's actually on there. So how is all this going to shake down, do you think? Yeah, very good question. I wish I had a crystal ball. I mean, I think it's in the ways that we've talked about is that there is still hopefully there should be a space for all different types of, you know, film content and access. I think it's becoming increasingly difficult for audiences on one side because of the expense to access.

[00:25:11] But then on the other, there is a wide range. So I think that, yeah, there should be a space for every type of cinema, of film viewing experience. And I hope that would be the case. I mean, we've not talked about AI and the challenges. That's obviously... Well, how do you see AI playing into all this?

[00:25:27] Well, it's obviously we've seen it with the writers and the actors strike, you know, in terms of the threat that it poses to the creative industries and the remuneration of creativity and the fact that so many kind of, you know, AIs have been trained on material that's already there in non-ethical and ways, you know, where the creators have been exploited. So, you know, and obviously it does bring efficiencies to technological processes.

[00:25:53] So there has been a shift in how, you know, how films can be made, how post-production, VFX animation, how that can all really kind of benefit from the use of efficiency tools. So do you see it as a positive or do you think effectively the battle has been lost despite the actors and writers strike that actually in the end it's inevitable that AI will dominate? It's inevitable. Yeah, it's not going to go away.

[00:26:15] It's how it's kind of used and how it's managed, how it's regulated crucially and how, you know, how people and creativity and human creativity is protected and properly compensated. You know, the creative industries in the UK are one of the fastest growing in the UK. They're named in the industrial strategy.

[00:26:34] So we would hope that, you know, the government would be supportive of that in ensuring that the human remains at the heart of any form of creativity, but uses these tools as any tools in the history of technological development in productive, absolutely ethical and inclusive ways. Because you'd have to say at the heart of a good movie are great actors. So, and, you know, whether it's movies or TV shows. So another great series obviously was Succession.

[00:27:00] You couldn't, can you imagine an artificial intelligence engine creating Brian Cox, portraying that part? Probably because they could just sample Brian Cox from what he's already done. Yeah, I don't know. Really. It feels as though you've got to have that human. You've got to have good writing. And good writing as well. Can artificial intelligence produce that? I wonder. Do we bat above our weight in the UK though, even though it might be difficult getting funding? I sort of feel as though, I mean, we're talking to you in Farnham.

[00:27:25] There's a lot of stuff is filmed around here because we've got the woodland around here that's used a great deal. And there's a college as well close by where they can get help on the cheap. So a lot of blockbuster movies actually are filmed around here. And I think it's the weather as well. A cameraman friend of mine said, yeah, you get a lot of stuff filmed in the UK because the weather's so rubbish that the light's quite good. But I also sense that, you know, a lot of American movies are a little less American because of the English influence.

[00:27:55] And some of the subtleties that perhaps are part of the British culture influence Hollywood as well. Do you think we have more influence than perhaps a country our size should have in the movie industry? Yeah, I think we do. I think we do. And it's because of the government kind of investment that I've talked about in terms of, you know, favourable kind of tax situation for international productions to be made on our shores.

[00:28:16] And that's obviously grown, you know, a highly talented resource rich in terms of skills, you know, and knowledge and talent in the UK film industry and the creative industries at large. Actually, it's one of our, yeah, we're world leading in that regard, I would say, but perhaps under supported. So I think that has to change in order to sustain it and to continue to grow and to be as successful. But the British film industry, yeah, is a jewel in the crown, I would say.

[00:28:44] So drawing this to a conclusion a bit, Sarah, if I was to say, and Phil has obviously cast me as the gloom monster and all this saying it's all going down the hill. Always, every subject, every week. That's what I put up with, Sarah. That's what he does. But, you know, if we project 20 years in the future, I take on, well, you don't have a crystal ball. But, you know, you can imagine a situation in which our entertainment is fundamentally at home, wherever we happen to be or on our phones.

[00:29:05] We look at things, but they are perhaps entirely generated by our AI, just sampling actors and material replenished again and again with amazing effects, but totally artificial. And that the cinemas, such they are, that remain will be empty. Is that too glimmy? That sounds like a dystopia to me. It does. But you know what, counter to that, you know, we do love the idea of the celebrity. And what you've described there, there's no celebrities. Yes. Because they're all artificial. They're very expensive, aren't they? They are.

[00:29:33] But, you know, it's inhuman, isn't it, what you're describing? Yeah, we're not talking about, I mean, the other technology that plays into this that's, you know, on the rise is, you know, virtual reality and augmented reality and mixed reality. That idea that you have this overlay where we might not be sitting anywhere, you know, looking at a screen. We might just be wearing it, you know, in terms of eyewear or glass on our heads where we can access media content, information, et cetera.

[00:29:59] So there's lots of advances being made in that area as well, which could go even more dystopian in the way that you just described. Yeah. If I'm wearing my cinema, I don't have to go to the cinema, do I? Maybe. And you could be in the same room trying to fight for control in succession of the Murdoch. Well, obviously not the Murdoch, because it wasn't about the Murdochs, obviously. But you could be there fighting for the Murdoch Empire. You could be part of the movie perhaps as well. There's interactivity and it's on the way. Which is games, but it's games. So all you're talking about there is a gaming experience. That's what I mean, Sarah.

[00:30:28] I mean, that is the point where the two things meet. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. But I think there's going to be a big pushback. I think there already is with AI and with these kind of highly, you know, technological interfaces that people want to come back to the humans, to the community. I think that's what draws people to the cinema, to be with other people. It's, you know, a human urge. I don't think that's going to go away in a sense. Many of this, you know, what we've been talking about will be resisted. And the community element and the coming together will be what people want.

[00:30:59] And is it an art form, do you think? Because if it is an art form, you'd say, well, it can't be done by artificial intelligence. It can't be taken out of it. I agree with that. An art form that will endure. Sarah, thank you so much for walking us through that. And more optimistic than I am. I think you're in Phil's camp on all this. But thank you for giving us a sense of where it's going. Thanks, Sarah. Pleasure. Thank you. And next week, the art of war. Oh, no, I hope not. The art of avoiding war. Well, but there is a war. Well, there is a war. We hope it won't be a bigger war. Yeah.

[00:31:28] And it's, well, I mean, so Russia really are right now using every opportunity. They're pummeling. You know, we forget about this because the talk is about the resolution. But, I mean, Russia is really pummeling, you know, the whole country at the moment. Missiles falling even as we speak. Yes, it's very true. And, I mean, things have moved so fast and so unexpectedly. We're talking about Ukraine, obviously. Yeah, in case anyone wasn't tuning in on it. And, you know, the United States changing its position almost by the hour. Europeans getting together or not.

[00:31:58] And we just don't know where we will be, of course, at this time next week. But we will bring you our assessment of at least one of the major aspects of all this. Impossible to say what it's going to be. We know we're going to talk about something to do with Ukraine, US relations, in that general area. But it's such a fast-moving story, it's very difficult to tell what angle we're going to take at. But we'll try and find an angle that's not being covered every day in the mainstream media. So we're giving a different look at it. Indeed, something, an insight into hopefully understanding what is an extremely difficult and complex issue. Yeah.

[00:32:28] And that's all coming up next week. On the Y Curve. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening. The Y Curve.