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[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The Why Curve with Phil Dobbie and Roger Herring.
[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very big part of it, which is better than traditional of all kind of phobias, really.
[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Phobias about who's coming in, what they're doing and are they disadvanced.
[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Gene Meach, but I think the idea, the interesting thing that the user that term far right, because it's sort of different
[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: of writing something, historically, fascism of course.
[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And that term has been held around.
[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a little bit of a new thing.
[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've got a lot of progress and a lot of these people who've been writing in
[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandaland and Southport and places like that.
[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Now to all the shunt, are they necessarily what you'd call for example white supremists?
[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're not getting back to the Nazi age.
[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think there's too many immigrants in the country.
[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think most would they all be saying, well, white is a superior race.
[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure they would, so has it really got that far?
[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not those people who were doing that, but I think the thing is it's too far.
[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you know, the vast majority of the people who went out through stones,
[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: do all those kind of things probably didn't think a long way beyond, you know,
[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't want foreigners here too many immigrants.
[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it went beyond that for them.
[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Most, to be honest, calling least the court reports.
[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We're drunk anyway and you know, you're not to bring that or they would just like to.
[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They've been.
[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's who's pulling the strings.
[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the point.
[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They was given the opportunity to miss be hit and then all of a sudden I think that's why I think
[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Kirstan was quite smart to ensure well, the police were quite smart as well
[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to make sure that everyone was charged very quickly because those drunken folks and the real
[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: lives.
[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there's consequences this.
[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I going to jail for three years?
[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I won't do that after all.
[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'll just, yeah, maybe I'll just write snottome marks on Twitter instead, you know,
[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's interesting that actually what's happened is the idea that you'd always might see
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you say, well, hang on.
[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the, you know, is there some underlying disc contents and genuine grievance that somehow
[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: these people are channeling?
[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's been in the background but not mainstream, I'd say.
[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but there's a cost of living crisis.
[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people are finding hard to make ends meet.
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They see, they can blame one of two people.
[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So the, the Karl Marx way would say, well, this is, you know, we want to revolution against
[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the, you know, the bourgeoisie who, you know, taking all of our money, you know, we're doing all the work.
[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They're clipping the ticket.
[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Where, as this is really not against sort of like the landowners and the wealthy, this is against migrants,
[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but you begin to wonder, well, is that, is that because they've been told go against the migrants
[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because this is messaging coming from, you know, the wealthiest people on the planet who want to protect
[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: their wealth.
[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's the classic, yeah, that's the classic line in all the history of these things.
[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But then if it's interesting, if you, if you trace it back and you go through what happened in the
[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: election, we actually have for the first time representation in part of the world.
[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other party that is to the right of the conservative party.
[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And determinedly so, but I mean, are they, they've been careful say they're not in support
[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of the sugary or whatever, but are they the ones, the reform party who have produced
[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the atmosphere in which these things happen?
[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they far right or are they, is to a populist right?
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's another interesting one, which is very different and reflects also, I guess,
[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: on what's happening in the left.
[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, that sounds a little bit more acceptable, the almost of the populist
[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: right.
[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's funny isn't that populism is a term which has been used as a drug
[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: or a true term by somewhere as the people who follow it would say, well, hang on, what's wrong with being popular?
[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a popular and popularist, I suppose, is the difference.
[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's not a hell of, I don't think either of them are healthy terms,
[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: populism, all the far right because people will say, oh, you're just labeling us now.
[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just makes the whole situation more inflamed.
[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's why we need to drill into what is the far right in reality?
[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: What is it actually exist?
[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: What is it consist of?
[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a sense that it is some kind of organised new political area?
[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk to someone who's studied that.
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That's already, let's get us sorted out.
[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Or really on Mondor?
[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a senior lecturer in politics university, but also co-convener of the reactionary
[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: politics research network.
[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And he joins us now.
[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I, and we've been there, we're not talking about, you know, the definition of far right.
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you were to, it's hard, isn't it?
[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: If you were to come up with it in the sentence, what would you say this?
[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a, that's a tough question.
[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a tough question.
[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I could come up with it in a sentence to be honest, and I think it would be a mistake, in fact,
[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think one of the risks if we try to kind of define the far right to simplistically is that
[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: we actually end up either playing the threat or end up playing it.
[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think either way would be, would be a mistake.
[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So the way my colleague Aaron Winter and I have tried to kind of define it in the kind of more
[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: sexing way possible is to kind of create a kind of spectrum between mainstream far right and
[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: extreme right.
[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So the far right for us is, well, let's not with the extreme right, but the most obvious one,
[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the extreme right is what we saw in the streets over UK in the last couple of weeks.
[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the kind of violent form of extremism on the right that tends to be catching in racism in Islamophobia,
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that tends to be quite often linked to fascist movements and so on.
[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the extreme right, so that's violent and that's outside of democracy.
[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're drawing a distinction, there's a big clear between the extreme right, which you talked about there.
[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But you say far right is probably something different.
[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, yeah.
[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So for us, at least in a rookie it's not a perfect kind of way.
[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So what we try to do is to come up with these kind of differences in a way to make sense of what's happening.
[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So as the extreme right, which is kind of like the one but everyone denounces,
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but even far right parties will say no, they go too far.
[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you think of a man in Le Ben, for example in France or even Donald Trump,
[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: they will or even Donald Far right in the UK, they will say these people are going too far.
[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: These people are racist, we not like them. And so the far right is this kind of part of the spectrum, if you want,
[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a bit more accepted, but it's still seen by the mainstream outside of the norm,
[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but that's a bit more accepted than the extreme right.
[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So they pretend at least themselves that they are not racist, but they are not linked to the extreme right,
[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but they accept the rules of democracy.
[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, very often we can see that the borders between the two are quite blurry in fact.
[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And they are quite a lot of extreme right members who will end up voting for the far right.
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And quite a lot of far right members who will end up having sympathies with the extreme right.
[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have a mainstream and again I think it's important not to create some kind of impermeable border between the mainstream and the far right because we can see.
[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: When you say mainstream, when you say mainstream, or really are you saying the mainstream begins with the conservative parties at the next thing in British terms
[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a general but very difficult right because you could argue that it begins with the conservative party, but then again we've seen many conservative party members,
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: we've seen many conservative MPs or even members of a government who have a code things that we normally see in the far right.
[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we're, again, I think we have to be very careful with the way we define all these things because there's a difference between discourse and between parties for example.
[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So you know the party can take a particular stand but then the discourse of some of the members might be very different and might edge towards the far right.
[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So these things are always in movement if you want, there's no clear borders between the extreme right, the far right and the mainstream.
[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to find ways to kind of talk about these, but we need to be careful not to make them to solidify it in a way.
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: However far right you go, it seems like it's always the conversation is always about immigration or race or religion.
[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not right. So because you could be because I mean it seems like these people who are complaining about there are far too many migrants coming into the country and we don't like them because then Muslims would they necessarily be the same people and saying, well,
[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll also follow a right wing agenda which says there should be less tax and the wealthy should be allowed to get wealthy while the poor just have to fight their own way.
[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I would have thought that we less self-interesting that because a lot of these people didn't look as though they're well off, then the fact that they could turn up for right in the middle of the day without their employees permissions.
[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, I spent many of them don't have a job. So and you know, to just the just that racism go along with economic policy or are we just saying no far right is just a question about immigration.
[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a question about immigration but I think you know you're touching on some very important issues here, you know it's not just immigration, we can see also similar issues when it comes to gender for example and we can see like some groups kind of coming together when it comes to the exclusion of other people.
[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So the far right is very much about more of panic. It's about blaming and other and this other is generally a community that is vulnerable, but it's pretty much voiceless, but doesn't have a lot of power.
[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is really far as if it was therefore that everything bad in our lives is happening so it could be immigrants could be a southern sicker. It could be Muslim communities. It could be trans people.
[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It has been of course Jewish people for a very long time when it comes to antisemitism and still is. It could be travelers, you know so it's always going to be minority that's been women of course as well.
[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not necessarily a minority but it's a minoritized community and generates a community that doesn't actually hold a lot of power and cannot push back as is like what's important, but it's so it's interesting just on that on that on the other whole Jewish thing. Why is the Jewish community excluded this time?
[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't they get excluded at all? In fact, you know, I mean in the recent riots we haven't talked about it so much necessarily but I think when it comes to the extreme right in this country or in other countries, and antisemitism is never far.
[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know you often see kind of like some dog whistling that is not clear less than a Sierra anti-Semitism but that taps into antisemitic theories that have been around for a very long time. So it's never far and ever says.
[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But just as confused things, that's associated with the far left of course because of what's been happening in the Labour Party over the last few years.
[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean it's a very I mean they're interesting moments. I mean you talk about the right to speak, you know this push against the other but I mean really in fairness you have to say on the far left you get a push back on a different sort of other perhaps and other that is seen to be disadvantaged in a different way.
[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a similar kind of mode.
[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so because I mean I'm talking about identity here, so the other is constructed as an essentialised identity, you know which is the core of racism right, which is that you know the far right is not interesting issues of religion for example when we talk about Islam and Islamophobia they are interesting in homogenizing
[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and anti-community that is incredibly diverse right we're talking about more than one billion Muslim people in the world and they're trying to argue that these people, these one billion people are afraid to democracy for example.
[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I talk about it's about homogenizing identities which is very different to what the left in general and I don't know what what you call a far left to be honest but what the left in general is doing.
[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So you know to go back to the point about economics because I think it's absolutely crucial and that's when we don't talk enough about.
[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean the first thing I need to be to be said is that in a lot of extreme right riots around and I don't know yet about the UK because I haven't actually seen any of the details about who these people were.
[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's interesting to see the demographics but if you think for example of January the 6th in the United States you know understanding of a capital, these people work quite wealthy because to be able to travel to Washington to go and storm the capital.
[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You cannot be unemployed you cannot be on the breadline you need enough money to be able to do that right and what we're so in the aftermath is actually these people are quite well off and so there's often a mistake when we think about the far right or the extreme right to think about their.
[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the support is in the working class in the poor one in fact it's generally in classes that are a bit wealthy over and bad and sometimes quite worth the fact.
[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But on that I wonder whether you know these people who are holding a an ethos that they feel as worth fighting for or whether they are just.
[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I mean it's a coherent really to anything what these people think I mean these these people are in we've seen them and as you say to once you appear in court so far seem to be what many of them were drunk many of them.
[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not really in co-hearing and looking for a fight you could say there's no real coherence necessarily.
[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I was feeling of grief.
[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember watching a documentary I was going to say a few decades ago about football who ligands.
[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: In the UK we see less of that now so maybe this is pent up demand for people who want to go and wreak havoc they were all sort of like you know people in well to do jobs.
[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know they were professional people who are out causing trouble so I just wonder whether you know you can rally people to get angry about something.
[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's far right or not these people who you know they've just got chip on their shoulders and they've got too much testosterone there's not many women fighting in the streets.
[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I noticed and they just feel like they've got to get something off their chest.
[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is certainly about what we've seen in the riots in the UK having said that I don't think we should just just boil it down to that as well because what we've seen as well is people who were willing to go to protest in the past few years you know whether it was during covid.
[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We're very well recently in London when touring Robinson called for protest and that's a different kind of protest here because you actually kind of gathering based on on on a political program on a political ideology.
[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the riots you're right what we've seen coming is that it's very difficult to talk about is as a unified ideological movement and I think you know again we will have to be careful going forward how we discuss about and I think we'll figure out fairly soon what the demographics were.
[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Having said that you know what we're seeing as well is you know this growing anger that's true, but it is also an anger that kind of ends up being.
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Being done against kind of minorities so we need to also call it as famous better.
[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We just can't just say it's just random because they're easy to stomp on in effect.
[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so like we're with with with struggling to get by, who can we blame?
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to make our voice heard let's let's attack somebody who's easy to attack.
[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But I really mean we talked about the people actually perhaps throwing rocks perhaps the people actually setting things on fire, but one of the big things and it's come up again in some of the court cases.
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the people who organized or encouraged that's now there sort of the unfair warriors if you like.
[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But do they have a more coherent perhaps political agenda that you could actually make a list of things?
[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I look this is what have been saying since you know since of start of his riots and from way before as well, you know one of the big issues that we're facing right now.
[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's one of the kind of really big issues with the response from the government at the moment which is just low and order.
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying that we don't necessarily need it but having just low and order is not going to be roots of a problem.
[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what we're not seeing is actually tackling the roots which are which go far beyond a bunch of a few hundreds and it's too many rioters right, but still it's only a few hundred rioters.
[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you know what is hand-boulding this people to act this way and to reach the spending so much time in jail.
[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we need to go to the bottom of this and the bottom of this is the normalization of far right discourse and this normalization of far right discourse, of course has happened on social media by the kind of bad faith influences on the far right such as to meet to me or on the extreme rights such as to me Robinson.
[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And various other kind of far right parties, far right actors and so on like Elon Musk for example, since he's taken over off of X.
[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But also in our mainstream politics, you know the way we've talked about certain issues like immigration like asylum seekers like refugees, when the rioters were chanting stuff about stuff about is not an extreme right or it's not a slogan but is only used on the extreme right.
[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a slogan that has become used in mainstream politics in this country.
[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we need to be a lot more careful about the way our public discourse has been shaped to normalize and to legitimize these issues as if they were legitimate concerns.
[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've heard that a lot right in recent days, we had the other, yes, these people are violent, they're racist, they're bad, but maybe they have legitimate concerns.
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think they do have any legitimate concerns because these issues when it comes to health, to education, to wages, to jobs and all of these kind of things many, many people in the UK share that.
[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to turn against minorities who have nothing to do with their situation.
[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what we need to kind of again think about and that takes us back to the point you were making about the economy before is that the far right are bad faith actors.
[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: They are never on the side of the people in inverted commas and this certainly not on the side of the working class because their politics are in a clean elitist.
[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: What they want is to replace the current elite, which again like anti-Semitism comes in quite often by another elite in a way which is very elite.
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think we need to be again careful about the way we talk about this because this is not a popular movement, this is very much an elitist far right.
[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's self-interest on there, on their part is what you say.
[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is a far right elite for sure. The people who organize that are the people who form these discourses who make them mainstream, who push them into the mainstream.
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's absolutely self-justification.
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Just because they want to preserve their wealth or...
[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, yeah, absolutely.
[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the people behind, look at Trump, look at Maryn LeBern, look at Musk.
[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, these people are not the left behind.
[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They're also perhaps not traditional. I mean, you think of me like, like, for example, Trump who is not necessarily traditional right.
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He's kind of populism. populism is almost a different thing in a way.
[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of at least tries to play with an agenda that perhaps isn't as right-wing and economic to preserving jobs in the coal industry, for example.
[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: In Trump's case.
[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look at, I've got massive issues with it.
[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm populism. I think it's done a lot of damage to be honest.
[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of blurred things far more than it's helped us understand.
[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Because Trump might be making noise about preserving jobs, about like the working class,
[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but two things first in terms of policy, it has not helped the working class at all.
[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, you know, what is done is lower taxes, is trying to destroy...
[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's trying to destroy things like Obama Care, it's trying to destroy whatever kind of little public services they had.
[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it's not doing anything for the working class.
[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you see, you can get introduced tariffs which actually, in effect, have pushed the prices of the...
[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, right?
[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the other myths that we need to debunk is the fact that, you know, it's not appealing to the working class itself, either.
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? Hillary Clinton in 2016 got far more votes from the working class than Trump did.
[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and we fail for that myth which, of course, J.D. events were pushing at the time with Hillary, right?
[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, again, we shouldn't have taken these people at their word.
[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We should have been far more critical and if you look at data from 2016, the vote from the poor in the United States goes predominantly to Hillary Clinton,
[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: or was she did much worse than Obama did at the time.
[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But Trump didn't do any better with the working class than his predecessors he were Republican candidates.
[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think we need to debunk these myths and the same myth happened with Brexit here as well, Brexit is not a working class vote.
[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: As much as we want to believe that it is, you know, the red wall that voted for Brexit, it's not actually a few.
[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It got figures and if you look at the sheer number of votes, it is again, a fairly wealthy vote, in fact.
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And that makes sense.
[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, it's only a why have we seen drawing it all together?
[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: We've seen, you know, when you call it populism or not, drive in Europe in the United States in the UK towards a certain area of policies,
[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's Martin La Pen, whether it's alternative for Deutschland, Germany, whether it's the current government, in fact, it's Italy.
[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We're drawing these things together all then in Hungary.
[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have a lot of other parts.
[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And it seems to be a resurgence really in the last 10, 15 years.
[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that happening then if there isn't something at room that is driving this far right again?
[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I certainly is right.
[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I would say it goes beyond 15 years, I think as well, I think it's been a very long time coming.
[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been first coming from the kind of like ideological change on the far right, which was very well planned since the 1970 and 80s in terms of changing discourse and trying to reclaim a mainstream position.
[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But importantly, I think, you know, this is the results of the many crises that we are facing in Europe, but we are facing in many countries in the world.
[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And that are not being answered to be honest.
[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And the far right is using this crisis to, you know, feel a gap in a way.
[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the big issues to me is that not so much that the far right is popular, which it is far too much, but it's still very limited in terms of popular appeal, even in the places where it's won.
[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, if you look at abstention, you would see that quite often abstention is bigger than actually people voting for the far right.
[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think what we, what we have a treat that we're missing at the moment is to look at the way the mainstream elite is using the far right as a diversion away from its inability to respond to the many crises we are facing, whether it's the climate crisis, whether it's inequalities, whether it's cost off leading and all that.
[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And instead what what the, what the, what makes the mainstream elite is very happy to do is to say, oh, it's just, yeah, let's just talk about immigration instead, even though immigration is not a really a popular concern.
[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think what we need to do if we say, yes, about tackling the rise of the far right.
[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You're saying, you're saying immigration is not really a popular concern. I mean, if you look at opinion, probably, okay one con question, it's validity.
[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The fact is, it seems to be reasonably high. I mean, not the top of the agenda, but it's not top of the day.
[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it has been top of the agenda though. It's it's dropped down as people are more concerned about the cost of living crisis.
[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So I also feel like that you're allowing me to plug my research here, but you know, I actually did some research at a couple of years ago. It was recently published in a in a report with my colleague Aaron, Aaron winter with the rainy mistrust.
[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: What we look at is the way immigration issue is constructed right, you know, we look at opinion polls and we tend to think far too easily that opinion polls give us an unadulted version of whether people believe which is of course not the case, right?
[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a hundred years ago already, Walter Lippman was saying that we need to be very careful with opinion polls. Don't give us a picture of the world. They give us a very mediated one and so on.
[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So what we did with my colleague Aaron winter was to look at the Euro barometer because the Euro barometer asks people the same people two questions. The first question is according to you, what are the two biggest concerns facing your country at the moment?
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the same people are asked according to you, what are the two biggest issues you are facing at the moment?
[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So when people are asked about the country, immigration is quite high, right? But immigration also rises and falls according to what's happening in venues. So it rises a lot in 2015-16. What happened then?
[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll let you guess, right? Of course, Brexit referendum but also the social refugee crisis, values, derisitataxing, France and Europe and so on. So immigration is talked a lot about in the media.
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But then it drops off right after 2016 after referendum, immigration drops as a concern for people in the UK which is fascinating of course because as we all know, immigration kept rising afterwards.
[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But somehow we didn't talk about it as much anymore. But the most interesting thing to me is that when we were the same people are asked about their day-to-day lives, they don't care about immigration anymore.
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Immigration drops off, it's one of the least important concerns for people. Where the care about is cost off leaving and that was before the cost of leaving crisis, health, education, pension, jobs and so on and so forth.
[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So again, what we need to consider when we talk about immigration as an issue of concern to people is how does it become an issue of concern? Because even the free others who are very much interested in politics,
[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: our knowledge of politics and our knowledge of our country is mediated, right? We don't know everything about it. I'm a political scientist by a name at least.
[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet I don't know everything. I don't know all the ins and out about Westminster. I don't know all the ins and out about what people think across the UK or anything like this, right?
[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is the agenda being driven by Westminster though always.
[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're trying to be said by various people, right? Like it's complicated.
[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We know we know we're making some of them. So Tommy Robinson, Elon Musk, Donald Trump.
[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think here we're letting up for who the people who are setting the agenda first and foremost,
[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I've just pretending that they don't have a role like you and I to be honest.
[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: What about the mainstream elite that has a privileged lackstays to shaping public discourse?
[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: People still turn predominantly to the BBC for their news, but still predominantly to mainstream media.
[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's by social media as well, we still have a lot of power. Even as an academic, I've felt a power of course under media or van politicians.
[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But I still have an ability to shape the agenda. Look, I've invited on your podcast. You know what?
[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: In writing anyone, right? So here I have the opportunity to shape the agenda and that's why I'm trying to shift it somewhere else.
[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think we need to take responsibility.
[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But already, I mean a lot of that agenda you're talking about. It's much less shaped by, I think, in many ways, certain newspapers,
[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02]: to some extent maybe even the broadcasts in terms of people accessing media.
[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: An awful lot of an essential media. We know that whether it's a social media shape by means from media though.
[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a little point. People like Andrew Tate for example.
[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You might want to take, for example, you know, seem as a very destructive force in terms of misogyny and racism.
[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's not actually majorly on any of the main mainstream media.
[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: What are you talking about?
[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He packs on what he's talking about. I mean if you look at a lot of extreme right influences, if they take their cues from what's
[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: talking about what's talked about in the mainstream media as well to an extent.
[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, they don't act in and of themselves. The other thing as well is, you know, mainstream elites.
[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Have a responsibility then to cover these people in a particular way.
[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Have a responsibility to pass a particular laws in terms of moderation and things like that.
[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We know what works to prevent people like, like, every date to gain a massive follow-up right?
[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We know full well that when Alex Jones was banned from YouTube he's support disappeared.
[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, like again, who makes these decisions?
[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Who passes these laws and policies? Who decides to cover the far right or not?
[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, there's a very interesting case in Belgium in the Franco-Fund part of Belgium where the media,
[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: across the board, agreed not to platform the far right.
[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And that did extremely well at removing their support.
[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so we know all these things. We know the power we have.
[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So don't give them the oxygen, is what you saying.
[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But that works to a point until you start to reach.
[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it must be something Donald Trump was banned from the platform.
[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Donald must buy his platform then he's doing the two-air interview with him.
[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But here you can see one of the massive issues that we are facing as democracies.
[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm talking globally here. He's the fact that a lot of our media now and our big media platforms are owned by people that are in very few hands.
[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But also in hands that are banned on destroying democracy from my point of view.
[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, with things that Elon Musk has been pushing in recent years is frightening to be honest.
[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he's doing it because he's not because it's bizarre. He's an interesting man, isn't he?
[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Because on the one side, you know, he's got the science projects that he's furthering.
[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And if he just did that, we'll all be saying what a fabulous man Elon Musk is.
[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And then on the other side, yes, this other agenda which makes no sense because it's destructive all the empire that he's built.
[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, there was a survey this week showing I don't have the figures to hand, but just how many people who are thinking of angeletic car will now not buy a Tesla in the UK as a response to Elon Musk's remarks about the riots.
[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And similarly those people who've actually got one of his cars wishing they didn't.
[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And the number of people who are perts leave X, I left X myself last week because I just had just got shot.
[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So he's just really crashed on that news alert.
[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe.
[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's destroying his own self-interest.
[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So there must be something deeper which is driving into this.
[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: What is it that makes a same manga crazy?
[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: He's destroying his own self-interest.
[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I mean, what has he lost?
[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So far, you know, he's lost 40 billion buying Twitter.
[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But what's it to him, right?
[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the power is got into shaping the agenda.
[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I think also, you know, what's fascinating about Elon Musk and it's not the only one is how we've followed for the kind of Hollywood personality here.
[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you look at Elon Musk by a Elon Musk's biography, you know, he's never been the selfless guy.
[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's in best-making taken things I've had as important as being there haven't necessarily always been driven to him.
[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know we need to think about how easy it has been constructed as well.
[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But think is a thing, you know, for a very long time these politics were not far under the surface.
[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And now they've come out full blown and I think, you know, there's a responsibility here again that we have to do something as the democracy is to prevent someone having so much power in the hands.
[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I appreciate people leaving Twitter, but, you know,
[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: right, he is.
[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, interestingly, that was not taking on Elon Musk of the man who was playing with the English language.
[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is just, you know, worrying because we're even more started.
[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite, it's, it's, it's Friday.
[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It was full blown, right?
[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It was full blown.
[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It was full blown.
[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But he's made of money.
[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It's money versus democracy.
[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's the point.
[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that point about democracy.
[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, really what we saw was that with the riots, what we've seen some extent with the gross of the far right as we said in America, some extent in Europe.
[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe here with, with reform getting into parliament whether they're far right from stream right whatever you want to call them.
[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it a threat?
[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it something we need or should be concerned about going for because if, you know, the reform have only five MPs.
[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not likely to be a major force in that way.
[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The rioters were, in effect, overwhelmed by anti-racist protesters.
[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this just something we just really don't need to worry about?
[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, look, this is a great question.
[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the answer is it's difficult.
[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to worry about it because the far right as a direct impact on many communities, right?
[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: After the riot, some people in bias communities that had been targeted, we're not able to go out anymore.
[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We're scared to go out, have been massively traumatized.
[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we've seen many communities at the moment suffering the consequences of far right discourses, well, as far right politics, far right writing and things like that.
[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, we need to worry about it.
[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But we cannot exaggerate the threat and we cannot just focus on this threat because the best way to defend the far right is to stop giving them platforms, to stop giving them air and instead to focus on other issues that can help us move towards a more optimistic future.
[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to tackle this self-appetuating, aren't they? That's the point.
[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, we had the attack in less than square this last week.
[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was an interview on Sky News, which I saw it appeared on my Facebook feed.
[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were interviewing the security guard Abdullah who actually tried to stop the stabbing, actually jumped on the guy.
[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So really the hero in the situation.
[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But then straight away, the comments were all about the colour and the religion of the attacker.
[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it started going on about, well you can see his Muslim because he's named Abdullah.
[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This is people who've got the completely wrong end of the day.
[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And we should say, of course, all this is going to be in front of the courts.
[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't actually really know anything about this.
[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we don't know what we know Abdullah was there and he was interviewed and everyone is assuming that he was the perpetrator because people because people are just looking at the surface.
[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not digging down on the deep down.
[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: The deep side of that as well is to portray him as a hero and using that as the kind of line that Muslim people have to cross to be able to be accepted right?
[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just pretty sure something about the free others we don't have to.
[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't the astute right?
[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I agree entirely and I think we need but again, I think what we need to do is really, you know, this is the result of two decades of normalization of of Islamophobia, right?
[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we could pinpoint it to 911, but in fact we could even pinpoint it to before that.
[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And this normalization will take a while to fight against and to remove.
[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And we need to work on it now and we need to turn away from these issues to stop talking about immigration, but we've talked about immigration to stop talking about Islam seekers, but we've been talking about Islam seekers for a very long time.
[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And instead talk about other issues where the far right has no answer to because if you talk about health, if you talk about education, if you talk about jobs, if you talk about the economy, the far right has no answer to them.
[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where we need to focus on really and once we focus on that, once we actually provide answers, provide narratives, provide discourse that resonate with people's day-to-day concerns, immigration will drop over the radar.
[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And the far right will drop over the radar, they will always be there, they will always be afraid but where we'll always need to worry about them because even...
[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: In a science-fine, but then you've got to change the editor of the Daily Mail, you've got to change the editor of the Daily Mail, you've got to change the editor of the Guardian to be honest.
[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the way we've talked about populism, for example, has been appalling from my point of view because it has you for miles the threat.
[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when he was talking about Steve Bannon as a populist, this is wrong. Steve Bannon was a white supremacist, you know, steel is and a massive threat to democracy.
[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't deserve a platform and we see that too often unfortunately, but probably the far right gives clicks.
[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But really, realistically, this isn't going to happen. People are going to keep talking about it. People have been weird talking about it, but people will keep talking about it.
[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So that extent and the extent to which, as I say with reform in Parliament, it's become called of a normalised politics.
[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to happen again and again, isn't it? We're going to have more riots at this time.
[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have to do some of the things. We're going to have to do some of the things. I wonder, I wonder whether you got a point there earlier, I wonder whether actually getting all of these editors, all of the mainstream media together, having almost to for them to not out.
[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The discussion we've just had for half an hour now, having it for two days and maybe looking at how we address this issue and how we create more balance back in the media.
[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not going to happen. There's no appetite for that in.
[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're talking about the same time. I agree with you that it might not happen, right? I mean, it's unlikely, but at the same time that's the only solution.
[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, either we say a suburb of Fred, but the far right is posing and therefore we actually think about the way our democracy is working which is feeding straight into far agnarities and strengthening its power.
[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Or we just, you know, for our hands up in the air and give up, the board is like, none of what I'm proposing, another word I've proposed through my research about addressing the rise and mainstreaming of far right politics is out of this world.
[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Demens massive reform or anything like this. It demands accountability and it demands responsibility. And you know, as Phil was saying, you know, these people probably already know, or we could just listen to what we have to say about these kind of things they just don't.
[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a choice. And from my point of view at this stage, when we're seeing riots in the UK, when we're seeing Elon Musk as a threat is today, this is complicity if you don't do anything. And if you don't change course from my point of view.
[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you, if there was a motion, if there was within the within the media industry, so I would go to work on two days.
[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm at we're just calling it calm down and we'll look at the role media has to play in all of this. If the editor of some of the papers that are pushing out some of the more extreme stuff, we'll just say, well, we're not going to go to that.
[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I am that that would say, that would be bad. I can't see it happening. The only hope by the gives the fact that interesting when the rights to face the express and the mail in as much as they have much influence.
[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you in the end come down and say, you know, we must end this thuggery. There was no elements of trying to make it anything better.
[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. But again, you could see how it crossed the line. And that's where the fact that the line between the far and the extra note or with you know, the blood line between the far and the extra and ideas, which is like, oh, it went too far.
[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But who has a very long time? And we've had some elites in Western states who have done the same as people in academia who have done the same as well.
[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is that it is safe.
[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You get down to the, you know, to follow it back to the roots. It's always as you say, a handful of people who's a gender, it's bizarre.
[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so I mean, it's, you know, we wonder whether Donald Trump is narcissistic where you'd have to think too hard about that to you. But it's something in the psyche of these people where they have to have more power.
[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it is money. Is it all control? It's the power that they want. So Donald Trump is very concerned about how well he's rating, how he's how his march has got more than Martin Luther King, for example.
[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what a thing to say. I mean, you know, it's just it's feeding his own ego. I mean, just not having anything else doesn't have a sense of humour. He's not particularly likable. So he likes to take control.
[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's all about it. I think all of these people actually, I think the same with Elon Musk, he's not exactly, you know, you wouldn't ever, you wouldn't ever laugh with Elon Musk, could you? So all of these people, I think they've got something deep rooted within them.
[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: That means that something missing in their past now, which means they've got to take control. I'm sure Hitler wasn't a fascinating guy to have a happy human right there. He probably have a, you know, a bit of a personality absence.
[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I wonder whether that's part of it.
[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he could be part of it, but I guess it's how we react as mainstream actors to these people. Do we platform them? Do we keep using them as kickbait?
[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Do we like, or do we kind of flax shift that engine away? Or do we just still be doing the moth.
[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Or do we see for a start? Well, we'll do we sit and discuss it reasonably and see what we've been coming up with. Hopefully is what is what we've been doing.
[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I really thank you very much for doing that.
[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting definitions far right extreme right. And as you said, you don't believe the populist is a thing.
[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who will disagree anyway. We've had a fascinating argument. Thank you very much indeed.
[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I really have to be. Well, we'll go talk to you. Thank you.
[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And all of this leads us quite nicely onto what's happening next week from, you know, talking about right wing extremists.
[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, populist. And the US election is he going to get in again and maybe not. I mean, he's not doing as well in the polls now.
[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: When we last visited this, of course, it was all that a crisis with Biden and would he still keep going? And of course he did it.
[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the meanwhile, Harris and Walsh are now the Democratic ticket and the Democratic National Convention is coming up when
[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: she will be acclaimed. But will it do any good? Will they hold their lead, which is a very narrow lead right now?
[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, sadly, I think a lot of it rests on on the televised debates. Doesn't that because that obviously was the day in Fall of Biden.
[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether there's one or the street, she thinks there's one.
[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Donald Trump is out there saying that there's three planned. He just hasn't told about them yet.
[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But the first five, those is the seven third that he's somewhere around the seventh of September anyway.
[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: 10th. 10th of September. Tenth is a 20th one. He's I think he's that's the one this definitely in the book.
[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he's saying this one on the third as well on anyway.
[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Well before that, we will get a next week. Next week about what is at stake. What's happening in the swing stays just the key thing.
[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And whether in fact, all the doom and gloom on Democrats.
[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They might just be able to call this off with a somewhat younger person in the same seat than they was before.
[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we any clear? And this is a bit of an old fashioned notion. I know are we any clear on what the agenda is, you know, what they what they're promising, what they're going to do.
[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Should they win the election? I don't think we're vacating on another.
[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Very old. Very old.
[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You're a collector. Just don't tend to hang on matter to. Well, it's all about the objects. Well, yes, there we are. We'll look at the objects next week on the YKF. Thanks for joining us today. We'll see you next week. Thanks for watching.
[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: The Y. curve.