The Love Labour’s Lost

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The Why Curve with Phil Dobbie and Roger Hearing.

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: The honeymoon over in just seven weeks, a row over freebies, who buys their suits?

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Their match tickets, their glasses while they take precious pounds away from pensioners.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The shine has come off labor in government as maybe it always had to.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But can the party empower for the first time in 14 years, find a way to keep the people on board?

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: As they meet in conference this week, is the too much gloom about the future?

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Or with a huge parliamentary majority, can labor afford to just get on with it and not worry what people think.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The Why Curve.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So when these big conferences take place, you see them on TV, they all big, there's lots of people milling around, they've all got their backs full of something.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Threebies?

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But one arm of the freebies, what gets them freebies?

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there we are.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I can later, all these things given away, probably Chelsea tickets since then.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So what's the purpose of this?

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: What goes on there really?

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: There isn't a minute depends on the party because some of the parties have a party.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: There is actually kind of if they decide stuff it has to be done.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so they take a vote on stuff.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that does actually go through.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But the main thing is it's just putting your cabinet out on public view, talking to the people who've been

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: putting leaflets through doors for decades, giving them a bit back.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a bit of a jolly for them really.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: A bit, but also setting out the stall, that kind of stuff.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But the main thing is this time, of course, the stall is pretty thin, has to be said.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not a good look at the moment because they were talking about how terrible everything is, the awful stuff they've been left with.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and at the same time, there's awful PR disaster of turning up in lovely clothes.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but we took off some of those, so that is all just overplayed.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: When we're really, a bigger issue is, you know, what's the agenda?

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it feels like they've come into power as not the Tory party.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got a few very ideas about what they want to do, but really, I mean, have we seen the detail in it?

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the details being made as we go, I think, along with one of the lines is that we didn't know it was as bad as it is.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but that's not going to last too long.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: They've got to have some sort of sunday lot of lens to the wall.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but why would you be saying, well, okay, now we're in now.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And now we're going to think about what we're going to be doing.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: When you've been out of power for so long, you must have had an idea about what you got to do in the past.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got big some pieces.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not, it's nothing that specific, I think, well, that's the impression I get.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But I, you know, yes, you write it's a distraction as whole thing about freebies, but it does cast the mood.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you cast your mind back to Tony Blair when he first came in a little bit longer into the power,

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but there was a whole issue with four-miller one and money changing hands and all kinds of stuff going on.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just popular press, isn't it?

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's, you know, and they're mainly Tory of course.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it catches, you know, people see people in lovely clothes and lovely glasses and, you know, a big match is doing gay's eyes done.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that would of course, it looks like it's not on the trough, doesn't it? That's the problem.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it doesn't to me. I mean, it's the new liver life like this anyway.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's actually, you know, it's just that we're all these doing these gears getting up to my standard.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, that's what I'm saying is because you should, shouldn't be getting glasses.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You're getting zines, really. Don't you? Shouldn't be really getting your lenses, buddy.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, the whole thing about the Chelsea tickets, like if he wasn't in a box at Chelsea, then, you know, he'd be, they'd be a me for a massive security.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, you know, and that would cost more. And it would cost the taxpayer money rather than Chelsea's.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, look, well, Patrick, wasn't the point they made quick enough, so it'd been came a bit of a disaster.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's find out anyway, from someone who's been observing the labor party, both in opposition and now in government,

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: how they're going to proceed and how they should proceed. Let's talk to Matthew Flanders, who's Professor of Politics at Chelsea over.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Matthew, I'm just wondering whether, you know, the problem that the labor party's got is that they basically went on this agenda of we are not the Tory party.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And now they've got a few things that they're promising, but they haven't figured out the details.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of them. That's the sort of like the layman's impression of where they are right now, that they are clamoring to get up to speed on quite a few things.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that fair? I think that is fair. I think what we can see happening now is a number of issues, things potential problems coming home to roost.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Many of the issues that a lot of people were concerned and talking about before the general election, and you might say that almost that minivar strategy of not saying anything.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And just doing everything you cannot to get in trouble and to let the Conservatives be chopped out. The minivar strategy has crashed at the floor.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then the leds be a bit like the turies as well in some ways.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of like, well we're not going to austerity, but we're just not going to spend any money. Well, what's the difference?

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're going to be fiscally conservative, you know, where, you know, means assessing the wind of fuel.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: What they're saying is we've got such an awful inheritance. I mean, that's the thing.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, then the new minivars, if you like, is this terribly smashed thing, they vaguely repaired.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not really, it's not really being worked in such a bad situation by the turies when now going to have to behave like the turies.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there are two things there. I think, you know, pushing this metaphor could be pushed too far.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we could say the minivar vases fallen. It smashed and there was nothing in it.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that is the great problem. There's almost a policy vacuum where people are really, really asking now what is this labor government about?

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Where is it going? How is it getting there? Why is it going there? And how does it look different to what we've had before?

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And the winter fuel payments was a really worrying sign, not just because of the impact that it might have on older people.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think more because it suggested that there wasn't quite the political antennae in number 10 that they're really needed to be.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they did. They did. They did. They did. They did. And the thing about it is as well. I mean, it seems like they're now trying to say, well look, you know, if you, if you need the support, you'll get it. If you are on a pension credit.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The pension credit is worth about 3,900 pounds per year. Apparently there's a whole lot of people who are eligible for pension credits who are not getting it. So now they are racing out saying, hey, look, if you're eligible for pension credits going claim it and get your 3,900 pounds per year.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So if everybody who was eligible was to claim that, then the cost of that would almost be equal to the amount that they are saving by not giving the winter fuel.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not joined up government, essentially.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It is not joined up and it's just not for through. And what's really interesting is that, you know, a first year public policy student would know that older people are very often to embarrass and they are very reluctant to claim benefits to which they're entitled.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, you could say that, you know, it is this strategy of blaming the previous government really a good road to go down because if you look at the overall public spending in the UK per year, I know you chaps will know this off of the back of your hand.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: 1,200 billion a year, 1.2 trillion. Well, when you think of our public spending at 1.2 trillion, 22 billion doesn't seem bigger home when you look at it in the big macro political perspective.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It is actually what they're doing and I have this conversation with a few friends who in politics, it's way of rolling the pitch in order to say to the Tory voters, former Tory voters, we are not a spend-thrift socialist government.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We look, we're being hard on this, we're being sort of grad grinds as a way of building up confidence. Why do they need to do that? Because they've just won the election.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they've got this opportunity, haven't they, to go through the next four years and do what they want or may so long as they show results at the end. Why would you be trying to counter out to the people who didn't vote for you?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, certainly pre-election, the need for the Labour Party to develop a sense of financial fiscal competence was absolutely crucial and to some extent they were chief that.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: There is also a very clear logic in trying to manage the public's expectations, you know, promised not too much and then almost over deliver.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The problem is in terms of sort of, sort of setting out the pitch as you just mentioned it, the danger is they've almost created a slope that they're going to fall down because the mood music, this political ideology of what can only be called miserableism.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like a, it's the opposite of populism. It's almost trying to be unpopular so that at some point in the moment in the future you are able to pull some sort of rabbit out of the hat.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The problem as we can see from from the surveys polls and data at the moment is that the negativity that has come out of the government, particularly around the prime minister in the first 81 days.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it means if they do put a rabbit out of the hat there's no audience watching anyway because people are just turning off.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, could that be also part of the personality? I mean he's not Mr. charisma plus as he is more Mr. charisma bypass and so it's hard for him maybe it's hard for him to get excited and maybe you know that's the problem where you've got a leader like that we're not going to get enthusiastic about them.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: That's true and I think there's a lot to be said for you know stable solid let's say, you know, boring in a good sense after the turmoil of the last few years.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think there's there's arguably something more interesting coming to play here that yes, you know, the key of starma was never going to be the big main center stage charismatic leader and that was falling.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think what's worrying a lot of people now is that they seem to be sensing a lack of emotional intelligence around.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the key of starma's ability to connect with audiences is almost as if he doesn't quite get it what the problem is and I think that came across recently with the the controversy around the clothing that gifts the freebies got a very nice pair of glasses and classes are expensive and there are real issues to discuss about.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: MP Salary and their agenda dimensions about female politicians and the clothing and the expectations around them but but that the top of the party didn't really seem to understand for quite a long time.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't enough to just say well we followed the rules it was the public perception little landing coming from a government that made so much in opposition.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were going to be there purely to support the public and that they would be putting behind some of the great issues and concerns that pulled down the previous government.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it really looks like snouts in the trough and I mean again people have been speaking to him the political clear can't really understand you have a very good PR team because one of the things that got labor to power as in the 97 was a very very slick PR operation.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: How do they miss this as extraordinary what this is the problem I mean in many ways 81 days we've seen some real big own goals and and my sort of senses that the labor party at the top they don't have a big strong cutting edge media management machine.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: That is able not only to control what is happening day to day within the cabinet but also then to help manage that message as it goes out things just seem to be happening and then the government's scrambled backwards usually quite slowly to try to fill the gap even today.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The the cabinet office minister I call remember his name he's been around for ages remind me his name.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Not sure. He doesn't that speak volumes that we don't know for many many immediately. Well, yes, but he was you know somebody asked him about these issues with the the free biggest controversy verse.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And he dismissed it off saying that he'd been in politics long enough to know that any new government suffered from calls that would pass as if it was just a bit of wind blowing in the street that would quickly blow away and actually out there on the streets.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: These things actually really matters at people to believe that one day that because I couldn't care less whether someone gives clothes to the prime minister's wife.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know wonder whether you know there's a look like bribery that doesn't well it looks like we actually have come to the assumption that you know we are going to have very well dressed people in parliament. You know, which is not what we had in the days of Michael foot, for example, I don't think anyone volunteered close if they did he refused them obviously because there was a focus on not on on looks or appearance it was on substance wasn't it you know that was never been

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Trump knew it was it was you know back then they looked at Michael foot and he wore a donkey jacket famously to a memorial service and he had a real go to so these things, you know, these things maybe trivial but they do have impact.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But they are trivial.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But they still are in terms of big distraction to policy and it holds the agenda and I just think that's a bit sad.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think what's interesting is that the public are not silly or stupid. I think the public quite understand that politicians ministers might take support to allow them to undertake

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: their ministerial or political roles that might be support in terms of office staff at Dave the acknowledge that he'd taken some support to help with the care of his son.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But paying for your clothes and your glasses now most people say well we all have to pay for our clothes and our glasses why should they get them for free what is going on here it just doesn't smell right and that is the problem.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think this is why they have fallen so far in the polls do you think it's this.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: All of this is you don't get the payouts that they're receiving so there's a poll in the observer that we can't showing the opium.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Not an opium poll that would be something which says there's a 45 point drop in the prime minister approval rating since he won the election.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And the hand normal is that for a new government is this and it's not just him we know actually we've just added minus 36 event coupon minus 18 Angela Rona minus 23 David Lami minus 15 these were all impositive positions when we went to the polls now big negatives how unusual is that well it's it's not unusual.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We're particularly for a labor government to suffer a rather short honeymoon period everybody sort of knew that the but only conservative press would give them a pretty tough time I think the issue is that the labor government have given them so much material really to attack them and it is material that sort of resonated with the public in a really negative way.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So um, Kirstenmer has dropped 15 points in the last three weeks and that really has been because of the free bescandal but I think there's a big question the bigger issue here you're quite right it's not just about the the the clothes and the glasses.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a broader question about where is the vision and the emotional connection which means that the public understand.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Where the government is going and why and what's really interesting is that before the general election kissed armour held himself out and it and they openly rejected ideology he was a radical pragmatist.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Now what's appearing to happen is that that pragmat radical pragmatism it's just becoming too technocratic there isn't enough emotional protection or understanding.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what we speak here.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really being expected to show it's some emotional understanding of the British public and it's also a vision about where he wants to take the government and therefore the UK is a country.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it doesn't really seem different I mean that's something that goes to me there is no evidence of difference in the end the problems are the same.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean if you take immigration for example which was and remains a pretty major concern for a number of British people it doesn't sound like there are any new solutions in prospect a different tone perhaps you know certainly getting rid of the Rwanda issue.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But but nothing actually substantive that's really going to make it different.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And certainly you know on the economic front it's exactly the same you've got a chance to work for the Bank of England very much got this fiscal conservative approach where some people would think well a labor government is going to spend for growth not cut back for growth and in fact a lot of economists would say well if you are cutting government spending you won't have.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not a big growth because you've got to keep money in the economy the moment you start sucking money out of the economy the economy will slow down and yet that seems to be their approach they're taking which would say would be a conservative party approach.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Well it's there's no clear blue water to use a terrible old cliche Matthew is there between them and the previous administration.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well to go back to the Ming vars there's no water in the vars it's not a long crash and the stars is working very hard to leave the vars.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Continue with the Ming vars to give us the basic issues in the Rwanda's general election the labor government would not be sort of.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: How down to specific policies because quite frankly they were so far ahead in the polls. They didn't need to give any detail because they would be attacked if you go one way or another and it was easier just sort of almost coast into power on a negative vote against the conservatives that's what's happened.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: However now we are at the point where everybody is saying it's not even where the policies I mean as far as I can see we're treating.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Has he given a big headline speech yet on health policy.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a clear policy on universities?

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: There just doesn't seem to be any visibility of the members of the cabinet in the big policy areas that everybody knows need some form of resolution.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get to a hundred days then because there's always this big thing about what we've achieved in our first hundred days. Are they going to go to a hundred days and actually really not have nothing to show for it?

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think they will definitely get to the hundred days in terms of their audit there and I'm sure there will be some form of narrative that comes out that is very technocratic about probably blaming the previous government and emptying out all the spiders in the cupboard or whatever the phrase is.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean the great problem is in this period of a labor government or really any government. This is your should be your huge opportunity to start putting down big transformative policies that then you can then get bedded in and get running and start to get some credit for for the next general.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So is the problem in the run up to the election though, two scared to say anything because if they said something it might be something that people didn't want to hear.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And you would have thought well okay now that's over say what you really think because you got years to the people they never had anything.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well they were actually doing in the end we're saying all we won't say anything because there's a plan.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's nothing that is. Yeah, party of no ideas.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Hence my return to the vase that we're not allowed to name anymore.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no let's stick with it then. Who gave them the vase by the way? That's the question.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But you say so the vase was always empty.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean what's really interesting here is if you just go back to the general election.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Labour got 35% of a 60% turnout. So that's only 20% of the overall electorate and it was only a very disproportional electoral system that's given them their 400 and 11 seats.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not as if Labour can really claim to be have been carried on in on the crest of a wave with great public popularity for a clear vision.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: There was no real great hope belief desire story.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a negative reaction more against the Boris Johnson, the Liz Trusts, the sort of gradual unfolding collapse of really she's soon act.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that is a really important issue now because it's not as if the hummingbird was ever really floating along on a sea of huge public support.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It was never the things can never get to happen.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That's you know, if we've gone back to 97 that feeling was never there at all.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it because they are not getting the message across?

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the policies are alright. They're just not pitching them correctly.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So the idea of the winter fuel payment, this idea that well really it needs to be mean to assess because there's lots of wealthy pensioners who don't need it.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And those who are eligible for pension credits can get it and they'll get the winter fuel ads and by the way we'll make sure everyone who's eligible for those credits gets it.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That sort of becomes a not just a subsidizing fuel payments. That also becomes a you know equalizing income discrepancies.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And similarly with private education, saying, well, you know we're going to tax people who are sending kids to private schools. So we have more money for public schools that again is sort of like a you know dealing with the wealth divide.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: They're also taking on things like saying with people who claiming benefits but not being in work.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we've got to get these vast numbers of people who are not economically active back in by partly seeing if they are in fact, you know, entitled to these benefits in the first place.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So that whole theme is kind of it's stock taking. It's accounting really. So the playing it hard on there and the one hand, they're saying, well, okay, we're trying to deal with the wealth divide on the other side. We're going to go hard on people who we think are abusing the system which is mixing that message up a little bit.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think in many ways what the labor government trying to do at the moment is try to be everything to all sides of the political spectrum.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: The matter is that you can't please everybody all of the time and it's almost I think a reflection of a lack of confidence within the government that they're not really quite sure where they're going or why.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And so these errors keep coming around and again, as you said, like to take the the fuel payments.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: If heaven forbid I was involved working with with the party on this, it would have been fairly simple to say, well, actually if you want to move in this direction, don't just cut the payment straight away tax it set out a dice of travel that then you can move along in few two years.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, if you're going to do that, you need to be banging and emphasizing the fact that you're still keeping the triple lock will to have delivered an additional 1700 pound within 18 months.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But what positive count has been narrative, positive story doesn't get through it.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's so odd because as you said that they seem to be lacking in confidence and this is a government with an almost unprecedented majority.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't actually need to care, particularly what people think they can do whatever they like effectively.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so Gates, band down to the lack of ideas but they also also it's the lack of discussion isn't it?

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was a I mean, you gave one way of dealing with that winter fuel payment. I mean another way would be to say well, okay, let's pass a law where a bit like telephone companies where they have to provide a basic service.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say that to energy companies as well.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So the owners on providing cheaper energy for low income households goes to the providers not to the government and then those companies then can use that money from charging more for you know heavy users to cost subsidized lighter users.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: No government involvement in needed in that at all, it's just a law that achieves the same aim.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not even being discussed there's been no discussion it's just sort of like well here's an idea we've got and we're going to roll it out there.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: feverishly and you know and some people are going to get here in the process it's it's a lot of it just seems naive.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Well let's try and look at the other way around we might say okay I'm going to New Government the worst thing that could happen would be for a new government to come in with a massive majority.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And start running too quickly with massive new policy changes so maybe on the hand it's good that they've done nothing to do lots of bad things too quickly and of course.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They also had to deal with the, the, gosh, the incredibly sad and worrying riots that we had in the summer around the the immigrants and where they were living in the various hotels.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Some near me and then the overload on the prisons and the new prison policy for the early release to manage that so hey a positive interpretation of the first 80 days might accept that there have been some challenges and unexpected things have landed on the agenda.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is still this lack of bidding on the front foot which I think is worrying a lot of people and is worrying a lot of people in Liverpool today who want to see.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Kirsta Armour show what him on the front foot looks like and if you saw the chance to say what I thought was really interesting.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, she gave her speech and she was clearly had been told we've got to be more positive upbeat and optimistic and it just came across as almost painful that said she was confident about the future but with a face that it didn't really come across that she's.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It like Gordon Brown smiling famously in that video which everyone thought was absolutely horrific when it came out.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But I suppose one of the interesting things about you and this is is that in the background to this things going on inside the party inside the cabinet office inside all those areas that they're actually not getting on well because it was really interesting what came out about Sue Gray and her income that was a leak from deep inside the system.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it suggests and there have been lots of lots of rumors about this that they're actually almost too busy fighting each other.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing about where they go, is it a case that you know that's happening in the background is everyone else just being so well behaved because it is a party that is very divided.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean what does the left wing of the Labour party think about what's happening right now? I mean they are keeping quite about it but how long.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean the Sue Gray issue has run and run and run since the first time it was even floated she might lead you for the cabinet office and take this chief of staff role.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think what's really interesting for me is it's not so much the Sue Gray and the leaks.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think almost pierced armor is too isolated from having people around him that will challenge him that will push him.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We're offering fresh ideas is almost if he's got a very small number of three or four people that in a cabinet group.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And anybody trying to break into that to really come a stir things up in a positive innovative way. I just don't think they can break through.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the point of these conferences and we talked about it just earlier on just before we joined us?

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I would have thought this will be an opportunity if you've got a group of people altogether who also like share a common interest.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You'd be having debates and discussions about the way things are done not just attending almost statements coming from the leader.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But none of that seems to go on it. Did it ever happen at any of these conferences?

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so. We're never lots of fringe events that are more focused on policy and of course inform with discussions happen.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the conferences for all the parties are possibly more important than they ever were. They are an opportunity for the leadership to boost up and ensure that they have really close connections and a real

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: trust base relationship with the rank and father of the party that day in day out do the hidden work of party politics.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: These are the people that deliver the leaflets hold the surgeries or the local counselors pay their party memberships and in many ways that the leadership really forget the British public.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The leadership really needs to boost up the Labour Party rank and file with a belief that they know where they're going on what this vision is.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Because at the moment the party itself feels a little bit flat which for a new government with a 200 plus majority is a very odd situation to it's a very bizarre situation.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We spoke to you last year around this time and we're talking about the Labour Party and how it had to keep this lovely vase all the way into government.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: They found it there. It's all as you said a bit not working the vase doesn't seem to be there there's nothing in it.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If we're going to talk again at the same time next year maybe we will.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Looking at it now do you think Labour will by then a founded direction found a kind of theme that will be something we can call star marism out there?

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it just going to be muddled from here on the end?

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That is a good question. Is there is terrorism is that word ever going to be used for anything other than boredom?

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think stomorism is probably inevitably going to become a concept and it will be related to rather technocratic pragmatic sensible government.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The question is whether that government will be a failure or success.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: My concern is that as you head towards the middle of this parliament so maybe not next year but next year plus another six months or so.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Real deep questions will be asked about whether the government does have the vision the leadership to move on and take you through into the next general election.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think stomor has got plenty of time there's another year but I'm slightly concerned that all the even areas where there are real big policies needed.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The response at the moment is to create a new commissioner task force which it will take months and months before even delivers anything.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So I am worried that stomor needs to somehow put his front foot forward and show some real leadership and vision.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And as we discussed before the demo election is to really a vision-relead because I do think modern 21st century politics needs them.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and specific things that people say I'm just thinking back to the comparison with 97 with that election and the aftermobile.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But things like what for example the independence of the bank of England that was something that was a really strong clear change from what had gone before one conquestion it's wisdom perhaps in some ways but.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was there and it was ready to roll and it went and I just struggle to see anything even remotely similar in what they're planning now.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It is education education and it was simple but everybody knew what was going on and in many ways, labor has never had that simple one phrase snapshot this is what we're about.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay let's make one up families fairness and something else beginning with their families fairness and finances that is what we are about as a government for the future.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to look after your finances in a way that is fair that will deliver for your family.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Unbumbun that's it that's what the government is all about. Why do you make them to you?

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I know maybe after this goes out of their mind but I mean basic politics if and I think you know that is what they're looking for from kist armour in terms of coming up with a very clear vision and the whole to sell to the public where everybody knows.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Ah yes this is what labor is about on what it's doing and then of course you can start to wrap those policies how they link back to.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Finance families and fairness and how they feed into that call narrative and where it's going but it's the lack of that that gold and spine really which is.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And they also are not prepared to put any numbers on anything either I think that's part of the problem as well. They're worried about targets because they might not meet them.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And so and but I think that's just taken as well. Okay, we're just sort of like making our way.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Really into yeah in a direction without any clear idea what the end game is.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes well that there's a problem that that's just that's not good enough and it's not going to be good enough. So this ends us on growth.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Growth growing the economy fantastic apple pie mother had breastfeeding few people would argue against growing the economy.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But then you say well okay growing the economy for whom how are we going to measure this we could grow the economy in a way that will benefit the top 1% of the population that already who enrich.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Or what are we wanting to grow the economy in a terms that is really about addressing these embedded large structure inequalities that are being said for decades and centuries because if that's what you really want to do redistributes.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Then that's going to take a very different model of economic growth, but just saying economic growth which is kind of what they're doing at the moment.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah really help anybody understand how well yeah, I don't think there's many people in the labor party will say that trickle down is a philosophy that works terribly well.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So you would have thought it would be fairly easy to say we're going to go for growth and we're going to tax people more at the top end, but they seem very fearful of saying that because they worried about people leaving the country.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's an easy answer to that you say we're going to put a bit of extra government coming to aid to all of this so we see this growth people are going to leave the country because we are going to be one of the fastest growing economies in the world and that we want to part of it.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We're writing a manifesto here, it's well you know there we are so it's between us two basically yes.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I know what I'm saying.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I know what here's the number one say anymore anything still in mean vases.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: My father would say his father's a tool maker.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the only phrase that we can guarantee is not going to come back out, but if we go back to writing a manifesto one of the biggest challenges I work at the University of Great University of Sheffield across the country universities on a intense pressure around global markets movement of international students the.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The the stable trishing fees that is declining real value over the last 15 years.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: A very obvious massive issue for the future of the UK going back to argument about being a global science superpower is what is the.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Parties position what is the government's position on the future of universities haven't said it they haven't I mean bridge it Phillips and hasn't really gone there at all at the moment.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't even heard bridge of fitness and make a speech all mentioned the topic at all and yet this is one of the big headline things that any new government was going to have to come in and catch.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So what do they get we go through year and nobody says anything about anything.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we think it's going to be you know that looking like it is what what happens then.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, why happens then is inevitably the civil service will keep running the country and will be able to keep things ticking along and to some extent.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It'd be interesting to understand relationships with civil servants because often they want they want string strong guidance and leadership from our ministers about where they want departments and officials to be developing policy.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But the moment I would love to be in some of the meetings with felon and secretary is trying to understand the ministers mind on on on on how to handle some of these issues.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's you know, it's it is still early days and there is still plenty of time but at some point.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The conservative party will take the opportunity to rebuild refresh reenergize reimagined we know from 20th century history that could's over party a very good at doing that.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the Labour party and government at some point will have to come to a decision about how they do deliver strong clearer.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll vision really leadership.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: We will see if they manage that.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, do they need a new leader to do well?

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean that's you know.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's the final question.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Do thing when we go to the next general election.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think here's Tama will still be prime minister.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I have given up making predictions because British politics has been so incredibly upside down for the last few years.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I would hate to think what might happen at the next general election, but I will just throw this one out.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It is really important for members of the political class, stroke elite not to underestimate the amount of political apathy and disencharmment that is outside my window on the streets of South Yorkshire,

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Humbicide, Sprot Brothers, Midlands all over the country.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: My worry is that actually if the Labour party fail to deliver and if this government is seen as another failure, there will be one winner which isn't the Codotapathy.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It will be no different age reform party spinning about how we cannot trust the traditional parties, traditional politicians.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So my slight worry here and I had a one sort of care starmer to get on that front foot is because the perils of populism are out there.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And if traditional party politics doesn't deliver, unfortunately my worry even in the UK is the reform party might be the party that.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The party that is something we feel can have something new.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have done final questions again. Final question.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Angela Raina could see ever be prime minister always she just is she too radical.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean I'm very Angela Raina's prime minister would be a completely different Labour party.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be a very different Labour party. I think she is definitely somebody who could be a future prime minister.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there are a number of people within the cabinet who could be a future Labour prime minister.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I actually think that one of the great opportunities for the Labour party at the moment is to think about talent management and how they give visibility and promote and nurture the next generation of front line Labour politicians.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Because actually what we've seen in the first 81 days of this government is really very little of anybody else.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm absolutely absolutely happy.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Matthew thank you very much. Thanks for giving us some thoughts about what might be around the corner.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But when we next talk to you perhaps there'll be some proper policies amongst Labour and yeah that we can talk about.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk all the way there will be no mention no mention of any means.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe next time I get you on to talk about antiques and we'll just talk all about who mentioned politics at all.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Good morning Matthew. Thank you.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Good night. That brings us very nicely on to next week. Well, we'll talk about the Tory party.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Well indeed. But do you know what? I don't think anyone's going to listen next week.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean we don't know. No, no. Biggest audience in the podcast world anyway.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But next week, don't know about the Tory party.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no. It does anybody actually care.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's fun. It's great fun. You can see these people. You grow tasks.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Heating each other being horrible to each other.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's something to watch.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a car. It's reality.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. Yes. Well this.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And it looks bad for the Tory party. Oh yes.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they have there's nobody there who's a clear suit.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: When they're going through this process, aren't they?

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Just losing one person at a time.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. It's a long painful death.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really what the Tory party excels at.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to say, you know, it's not unemusing to watch.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Partly because you know that to some extent, it doesn't matter at this stage.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It will matter further on.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean as Matthew was saying that, you know, there is going to be an opposition.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And if Labour doesn't perform, as now you should maybe the opposition will matter.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a scare to the Nigel Frage.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Might actually be the winner out of all of this.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: If there's a dysfunctional Tory party and a dysfunctional Labour party.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: The Tories are going to be putting all this in front of us in the same vague form.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And we will examine it.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: What do they stand for? And who's going to stand for it?

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: That little coming up next week on the right here.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening. Catch you next week.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: The Y curve.