Councils of Despair

[00:00:00] The Why Curve, Phil Dobbie and Roger Haring. Councils are going bust, they're running

[00:00:06] out of money. Nottingham, woking and Birmingham have declared effective bankruptcy, and half

[00:00:10] of all council say they'll do the same within the next five years. Anything they're not

[00:00:15] legally obliged to provide has been slashed, libraries, the arts, youth services, been collections,

[00:00:21] and even the obligatory stuff, social care education highways has been paired to the

[00:00:26] council. Council tax is going up, but it's not enough and central government is not prepared

[00:00:30] to advance any more. So what's gone wrong with local government? And how can we fix it? The Why Curve.

[00:00:38] So it is in a bit of a state, isn't it? I think you know, you and I live in quite a nice

[00:00:44] part of the country where we don't, well, personally, we don't demand much. I'm thinking

[00:00:49] you know, there'll be parts of the country where the people who are dependent on heavily on

[00:00:53] government services just aren't getting them. Yeah, well, the real dependence, which is I suppose

[00:00:58] is a social service isn't that kind of stuff. They have to keep that going, but at the bare minimum.

[00:01:03] Yeah, and it's a big problem, but you know, the scale of it is extraordinary Birmingham,

[00:01:07] which is the largest local authority in Europe, basically can't pay. Yeah. I mean, how does that

[00:01:13] happen? And well, it's because I think it's because they're, I mean, we'll find out more today,

[00:01:19] but my sense of it is there's less money being provided by local, by central government.

[00:01:24] And local, I'm a carton raised money in the same way because you think about it. A lot of what

[00:01:28] they're doing to raise money, it's coming from where it's coming from taxes from your home.

[00:01:32] Yes. And people and people have less money to be able to afford to pay that or to increasingly

[00:01:37] pay them. We're getting, you know, five percent or more increases in those. And very often,

[00:01:42] they're going to people who can't afford to pay being charged for the services that they are

[00:01:46] consuming. So it's almost becoming user-pays type situation, which is not the idea of, you know,

[00:01:51] taxes supposed to be distributed. And then the other part is coming from local businesses. Now,

[00:01:57] that makes no sense because it, you know, it relates to the space that business takes up in a digital

[00:02:02] age. What's that got to do with anything? Does it make any sense? We're charging retailers more

[00:02:06] for floor space whereas online providers are not paying that. Yeah. I mean, it's like the old

[00:02:11] system of rates before council tax, which and of course, in the middle of that, there was the

[00:02:15] poll tax, the community charge, we should of course, still call it. So they really haven't got the

[00:02:21] idea of local finance sorted out at all. And in a way, never have because the rates were based

[00:02:26] on the value of your house. But then they haven't upgraded that since God knows when so it made no

[00:02:31] sense. You know, there's something badly wrong here. Do we either take the services that we demand

[00:02:37] and say, well, they have to be paid for essentially because in the end, that's the anyway government

[00:02:41] confunction. Or do we just give more money and more power to the local authorities who incidentally

[00:02:47] are very are elected by a tiny percentage of the population? Yes. Because people don't turn out

[00:02:52] for local election. Yeah, because they really don't. Yeah. There's because I'm on the side,

[00:02:56] isn't there? Right. Yeah. No. And should it be actually politics anyway? Should I mean, I mean,

[00:03:00] if they are just providing local services shouldn't it shouldn't it be beyond politics? Shouldn't

[00:03:05] it really just be administration? You know, it's a local administration. Well, I mean, the money should

[00:03:10] be dolled out from the center. I think because you can't collect it locally because the wealthy

[00:03:14] areas will find it easier to gather money, they need it less than the poorer areas in the country.

[00:03:19] You're going to struggle to raise that money. So it's got to be coming from center. Yeah, but money and

[00:03:22] power links, you see, if it comes from a center, it'll be the center that rules. It won't be the

[00:03:26] well, yeah. And then I'm putting that then but the danger is otherwise. I'm all for local

[00:03:31] political decision making, but I think having it made at the very local level makes little sense.

[00:03:36] You know, maybe I mean anyone who's seen the way parish council's operate, how can you be? But

[00:03:42] you need a plan but you need it. You need a regional plan, don't you? So maybe we need something

[00:03:47] you know, more for county council or sort of like a super county council, you know, start to get

[00:03:52] making these unitary authorities. That's all part of the thing and these elected local mayors

[00:03:56] it's all sparsely drawn in power, but they can't have power without money and the money isn't there.

[00:04:00] And you've got to have the expertise to go with that power as well. So you look at the working

[00:04:04] council for example, there's there's there you know back in your box working council they would

[00:04:08] they would do a great poor investment. Well yeah because they had this crazy idea about the future

[00:04:12] of working as though it's going to be the new you know Singapore, I was going to say Singapore on

[00:04:18] tennis is on the other of our ways and it's Singapore on way. Yes. And they built these massive town

[00:04:23] blocks which you can see from miles around glistening in the days of sunlight. No one lives there.

[00:04:27] I mean it's not Singapore, it's China isn't it? It's like they've made the same property investments

[00:04:31] that China's been making and consequently they're going to be paying for it for a long time.

[00:04:35] Let's talk to someone who knows all this in some detail. I'm able to give us a okay here in the

[00:04:40] city. I guess on what could be done. And that's Professor Peter Murphy, he's Director of Public

[00:04:44] Policy and Management Research Group at Nottingham Trent University in joint business. So Peter you've

[00:04:48] worked on both sides haven't you? So you have worked for the civil service. We're sort of doling out

[00:04:53] money to these local authorities and you've been the CEO that you've executive of one local authority

[00:04:58] as well. So you've seen it from from both sides. So who's the goodie and who's the baddie?

[00:05:04] In general terms, it's very difficult to over-bally local authorities. Local authorities basically

[00:05:12] well every Western advanced democracy has to have local authorities or has local authorities

[00:05:18] and they're basically to provide services and to be responsible and accountable to the citizens

[00:05:24] and you can't get away with not having local authorities. Basically if you want to be

[00:05:31] efficient and effective delivery of local services and make them appropriate to the communities

[00:05:37] they set. So local authorities have been in my view been fairly amazing that there haven't been

[00:05:44] more section one on four notices. If this is the bankruptcy, the technical bankruptcy?

[00:05:50] Yeah it is yeah the notice but they're increasingly not allowing or catching local authorities before

[00:05:58] they get to the stage of issuing those one on four notices because the one on four notices

[00:06:05] attracted attention from across the globe. I recently did a talk for the state regulators

[00:06:13] in the USA because the bankruptcy of local authorities in America is a state issue rather than

[00:06:21] a federal issue and some states allow them to go bankrupt and some states do not. So one on four

[00:06:31] notices particularly those who are notting them and Birmingham have attracted well wide attention.

[00:06:37] Yeah I mean it has been an extraordinary moment. Obviously their headlines, what you're talking

[00:06:42] about is really what's attracted our attention to this issue. Why have things got as bad as they

[00:06:48] have because it does seem that great chunks of local government aren't working. I mean why has

[00:06:55] it got to be better? Is it just simply because they're not getting enough money from central

[00:06:58] government or is the government saying well you should be raising more locally and there's

[00:07:02] just not spending as much? Or are they overspending? Are they actually inefficient?

[00:07:07] Yeah and this is basically a story of both long-term fundamental changes in local government

[00:07:14] finance and the different short-term triggers that have been the straw that broke the camel's back

[00:07:21] which have been different in a lot of cases but fundamentally you have got a long-term rise

[00:07:28] in the demand for local authority services coming up against a long-term reduction of

[00:07:37] local government finance or the finance that goes in total into local authorities and over the

[00:07:44] last 15 years we have a database that includes every local authority and every service within

[00:07:52] a local authority and that shows that every local authority has had a significant decrease in

[00:07:58] its income from central government which is just about the biggest part of their income.

[00:08:04] So just to clarify they're getting more money from central government than ever before?

[00:08:08] No, they're getting less. They're getting less. So it is in real terms it's going down?

[00:08:12] Yes, we've deflated it in real terms it is going down significantly and in terms of different

[00:08:19] people calculating that whether it's the national audit office or the local government association

[00:08:25] or any academics who have the figures, the argument is not whether it's been going down.

[00:08:33] The amount that it's been going down and the timescale may differ a little but they're all

[00:08:39] calculating roughly 30% in real terms over the last 10 to 15 years.

[00:08:45] Yes, and for the government they say they've gone down in real terms by 40% from

[00:08:49] 2009 to 2020. So in today's money from 46 and a half billion to 28 billion but you're talking

[00:08:56] about as well the increasing costs so what's costing more these days?

[00:09:02] Okay, fundamental stuff is that UI and everybody else is aging and the UK's population is aging

[00:09:12] although ironically we're not getting any health care. All age or cause mortality is for the

[00:09:18] first time in a long time going down. That means there's more of us in the older age brackets

[00:09:25] although we are not getting any healthier so within that there is increasing inequality

[00:09:33] in terms of both income or wealth and in terms of health and that's been going the wrong way since

[00:09:40] 2010. So the demand for local authority services disproportionately comes from the poorer

[00:09:49] and more vulnerable members. And the older so you're talking about, for example,

[00:09:53] having to spend more on old folks' homes perhaps because that would be a local authority expense

[00:09:59] and if you were in a poor area then you'd be calling on the local authority to provide that

[00:10:03] if you're in a wealthy area then perhaps you'll have enough money sitting in your own nest egg

[00:10:08] to be able to self-fund that. So yeah, that's an absolutely great example. The four biggest

[00:10:14] example, four or five biggest example, big expenditures are both children's and adults social care

[00:10:23] and I should say that for different authorities each of these has been a factor in tipping them over

[00:10:29] into one month or four notice not all and not not all of them in one local authority

[00:10:35] but the big ones are both children's and adults social care. So then I mean that would be an

[00:10:40] example, though, presumably of money which is ring fence so there'll be some sort of formula

[00:10:44] sitting somewhere which says a particular local council has so much of an aged population

[00:10:51] that need help but then as we've said there's a wealth factor so is that factored into

[00:10:56] the the equation as to how much money is actually received by the council. In simple terms the

[00:11:00] local government finance mechanism used by the Treasury in other words how the Treasury works out

[00:11:06] who gets what which authorities get and much for what services. Since 2014 has proven unfair to

[00:11:17] authorities with the poorest population and the greater service needs and the mechanism has been

[00:11:25] frozen since 2013-14 such that it continues to get more unfair every year since it was established

[00:11:35] and the latest establishment in 2013-14 and it will continue to get worse in the future. So

[00:11:42] it's not it's not increasing, it's not even staying level in real terms. It's getting worse.

[00:11:47] Right, it's getting worse. Basically they change the form and this is no

[00:11:54] simplification. I think that time was established. It's generally based on populations and some

[00:11:59] other things and then the index of multiple deprivation and in 2013-14 they reduced

[00:12:10] the amount that was the weight and the amount that was based on the index of multiple deprivation

[00:12:16] and increase the straightforward population, the amount that was dependent on population

[00:12:22] and that has the effect of benefiting more affluent areas and disbenefitting

[00:12:30] more impoverished areas or the poorer parts. And this formula is in relation to

[00:12:35] children services, social services what are we talking about? Okay it's in relation to

[00:12:41] what we call the local government financial settlement and the local government

[00:12:45] financial settlement as seven aspects based on 100 and something indicators but they include

[00:12:53] seven blocks of expenditure for different services and those blocks of expenditure how much you're

[00:12:59] allowed for children services, how much you're allowed for police, how much you're allowed for fire

[00:13:05] or put it into a single amount of money that local authorities receive. So there is a calculation

[00:13:12] of the children, children services there is one on adult services and there are five others

[00:13:19] I've mentioned police but they're one of the blocks, one of the most easiest but the amount

[00:13:24] to local government, the amount to local authorities get is a single block and they spend it

[00:13:31] whichever way they see fit and that's basically done that way because the treasury in particular

[00:13:39] recognizes that a bit of flexibility between the different blocks is a good thing if local authorities

[00:13:46] are trying to prioritize their expenditure as efficiently and as effectively as they can

[00:13:52] in their local authorities. So this is the money that is coming from central government to

[00:13:55] local authorities what proportion is that of their total income so you compare to business rates

[00:14:02] and council tax. Okay it is getting through the stage where it is it is definitely decreasing

[00:14:09] its proportion and it depends on every local authority, every local authority is different but

[00:14:14] it is definitely coming down in most of in most if not all authorities and in some authorities

[00:14:22] it'll start to be overtaken by some of the other big blocks that they spend out of money they get

[00:14:29] including the council tax which is on domestic property and the non-domestic or business rates

[00:14:38] that come from commercial and manufacturing activity or no not all businesses.

[00:14:45] Business rates are very partial in their coverage and business is only part of business is

[00:14:53] those that have premises can be rateable. There's lots of businesses that no longer have premises

[00:15:00] and therefore business rates are just as unequal, unequal geographically and a wealthy area

[00:15:07] can raise a lot more in business rates than a poor area notably the city of London which raises.

[00:15:14] Yeah I mean there is where businesses are and areas where people live. I mean it is a nonsense

[00:15:19] isn't it as well because you'll have areas which are consume a lot of space like for example

[00:15:25] a warehouse or a factory that might be paying people very little and then you might have two kids

[00:15:31] sitting in a basement riding code that is earning millions or billions. So the most effective way

[00:15:37] of taxing businesses on the turnover of the business which becomes not a local authority job

[00:15:43] but a central government job so I mean the logic would say it's crazy to tax businesses

[00:15:49] at the local level and unless you have this strange idea that well it'll encourage businesses

[00:15:54] to develop, it'll encourage local councils to say well let's get more business in our area

[00:15:58] because we're going to raise more revenue but I mean that's clearly not working. It has to be

[00:16:02] makes sense surely that this is a central government we already you know a tax business is based

[00:16:09] on their turnover or their profit just pass more of that out to local authorities.

[00:16:14] Yeah business rates have been recognized to be inadequate unfair and partial fee for decades

[00:16:20] to be honest. But to be honest, it's still away with them I mean it's unfair for a retail store to be

[00:16:24] paying rates when the competing against online. And then you get local councils saying well we have

[00:16:29] to make money out of the way so they think my local authority is trying to make money entirely out

[00:16:33] of parking fines and parking tickets. That's those people going in and shopping at those places

[00:16:38] So what was saying is that the money has been modelled itself is broken.

[00:16:44] It's very broken because in proportion to those getting a sense of this,

[00:16:47] in general it has the government grant or the government amount of money

[00:16:50] generally been over 50% of a council's income or has it been generally less than that?

[00:16:55] Oh, it's generally been over.

[00:16:57] So the majority of money would be from central government?

[00:17:00] But in general terms, yeah, the biggest amount

[00:17:03] that local authorities get is not income they generate themselves through council tax,

[00:17:09] is not generally business rates.

[00:17:11] It's not fees and charges and it's not some of the other innovative things

[00:17:15] they're allowed to do.

[00:17:16] It has generally been central government grant but that central government grant

[00:17:21] is going down and has been going down now for 14 years and it is due to go down if the

[00:17:28] government's autumn statement is to be believed it will go down further in the next five years.

[00:17:35] Because they want local authorities to take more responsibility for their spending?

[00:17:39] Is that the impetus?

[00:17:40] No, no, they want to reduce the role of local authorities.

[00:17:43] They want to reduce the size of local authorities.

[00:17:46] The range of services it provides for its people and the cost at which they have to get from

[00:17:55] facts and not that they want to place them with the central government looking after these

[00:18:00] things. They just want them to stop.

[00:18:02] No, in fact over that 15 years at various times, if it looks as though local authorities

[00:18:08] proportionate doing well, central government have shifted responsibility for more services

[00:18:14] on two local authorities.

[00:18:16] So in about 2014, they shifted public health which was previously part of the NHS

[00:18:25] into the responsibility of local authorities and they transferred some money across from the NHS

[00:18:31] budget to the local authorities but not as much as is required to keep the level of services

[00:18:37] as they were. So public health services, they froze the amount for a couple of years

[00:18:43] and since that time, public health services like other local authority services have had

[00:18:49] less money to spend.

[00:18:50] So is it politics? How much of this is politics then?

[00:18:53] You know that we've got a conservative government that wants to make areas where

[00:18:57] which you want to make small government.

[00:18:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wants to make small government look bad but also you

[00:19:02] consume a lot of these areas are labor controlled councils and actually you know broader question as well

[00:19:08] is there a place for politics and all of this? I don't know what the political

[00:19:11] persuasion was of the local authority that you're working for but I mean it seems to me that

[00:19:15] you know a lot of this is administration. Do we need politics at the local level or do we just

[00:19:20] need people that are going to provide those essential services? You know and does it matter what

[00:19:26] the colour of the council is we all want the same thing out of them?

[00:19:28] Well I must admit when the previous regime was in all political parties bought into it so it

[00:19:33] didn't really matter which government he was but all political parties at national and local

[00:19:38] level bought into the scheme that the idea that what we ought to be doing is improving local authorities

[00:19:45] and improving public services from national level from the central government so it wasn't as

[00:19:50] political as it is at the moment but it is it is undoubtedly more politics with a big P party

[00:19:58] political politics has crept into this but all I would say is there are only two times

[00:20:07] realistically you get the public gets a choice and goes to the ballot box and that's what gives

[00:20:15] both central governments and local governments legitimacy. Right but we don't go but we don't go

[00:20:20] in not in all not enough of us do it. We don't go to the local government once do it not many

[00:20:26] I would say you go to local local government elections more than you go to

[00:20:31] by elections for central government. Yeah true and certainly more than you go to well let's not get

[00:20:40] get into it but everywhere in the modern western world local authorities and central governments

[00:20:48] are subject to democratic control okay is the urban government important enough to be subject to

[00:20:54] democratic control yes it definitely is in my opinion and the best places are when local

[00:21:03] politicians take leadership of solving their local problems and that's the issue here

[00:21:12] are the problems being caused locally well generally not you know yes some councils have gone off

[00:21:20] and done some things that people like me have said to the government whatever you do don't give

[00:21:25] the give them the power to do x and y such as invest in on the stock market or invest in developments

[00:21:34] overseas where they have no experience or knowledge. Well you're talking working that you're

[00:21:41] talking working aren't you there you know where they are working is working is one of them

[00:21:45] and I notice in the financial settlement I live in Nottingham you know so it's right on my

[00:21:50] touch which is another one that's gone bad of course. Yeah it's another one well Nottingham has

[00:21:55] has received a capitalization an allocation for the capitalization for last year and last

[00:22:02] week two weeks ago are on the special financial support of about 60 million over two years

[00:22:10] working with a population about a third and services less than a third received a capitalization

[00:22:21] of 238 million. So you're saying that's essentially a political? No no I'm not saying it's a political

[00:22:29] thing but the working you've got themselves in a mess by investing on in things they don't know

[00:22:37] and yeah exactly now haven't got the expertise which is the the phrase is the question which I was

[00:22:43] trying to lead to when talking about the politics of all of this we want at the very local level

[00:22:48] we want you know to be able to have schools provided. So social services you want to have a library

[00:22:53] we want roads not having hot holes in them you know with like a park where we can go and walk our

[00:22:57] dogs we want it to be a pleasant place to live and all of those things don't seem like political

[00:23:02] decisions they said administration and if you had a formula from for allocating money to provide

[00:23:07] those based on the wealth of the area you're taking out the political and you say you say

[00:23:12] up the accountability element and you might then on top of that have well okay let's also have

[00:23:16] you know additional funding that can be used for local expertise which may become political as

[00:23:22] to as to what you do next but within a with you think a lot of that is going to be planned

[00:23:27] I mean you need more regional plans than local plans the bomb with working thinking that it's

[00:23:31] going to be Singapore on the riverway is that it's just not big enough if there was a regional plan

[00:23:38] for outside London then they may be part of that but it is not it's not the way forward then to have

[00:23:42] something that's much less political much more planned and more regional planning rather than

[00:23:47] local planning. And I've got four years ago five years ago we were in we were asking we were in

[00:23:54] front of the select committee the local government select committee there was myself that was

[00:24:00] Tony Travers from the London School of Economics there was Institute of Physical Studies

[00:24:05] there was Cypher Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountants and we also had

[00:24:11] contribution from the head of the National Audit Office and we were asked what we thought

[00:24:17] should happen in the long term and what we all said that in the really long term what was going

[00:24:22] to happen was there was going to be to be a single regional hot of money

[00:24:30] that included all public steps not just local authorities, health, police, lot and that

[00:24:37] there should be a mechanism at the local level but deciding where the priorities are.

[00:24:44] So a regional pot and then local and that into local areas deciding what they would be a candy

[00:24:49] cancel or would be bigger, it would be a Malcolm of cancels. No no it would have to it would

[00:24:54] be bigger otherwise you won't be able to cross subsidize and do things like that but we used

[00:25:00] to have standard economic regions, nine standard regions in this country and the other thing is

[00:25:08] it sounds like bleeding common sense that's why it's not happening it just seems like the

[00:25:12] the obvious way to plan regionally and then divest the money to locally based on need within

[00:25:17] that region I mean that's just common sense. Yeah it used to be argued that the treasury used to

[00:25:23] argue that we couldn't they couldn't technically do it it would be too complicated for them

[00:25:29] and that argument has been around for over 40 years however when we devolved responsibility

[00:25:38] to Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland that effectively blew holes in that argument

[00:25:44] if you can if you can devolve to those areas why can't you devolve to the nine it's the same thing.

[00:25:50] Did you think that is what will eventually I mean obviously in evidence you suggested that would

[00:25:54] happen but did you get the sense from the politicians you were speaking to that it was something

[00:25:59] that they agreed should in the end be what happened. Oh yeah we got the and it's a mix it was

[00:26:03] slek committees are mixed or political parties are represented on me and so I think at that time

[00:26:12] Labour had the chair and the Tories had the deputy chair and I think there was quite a

[00:26:18] quite number from the Lib Dems on on the subject. So I'm getting the feeling I don't know if you're

[00:26:22] if you're getting this Roger just I'm just getting the sense that there might be a change of

[00:26:26] government later this year or it's a lot of people I in the know are suggesting this if we had

[00:26:31] a Labour government would they would they attack this area and see that sort of change coming

[00:26:37] through because it sounds like you know bad though it is now those councils that haven't gone into

[00:26:42] administration loads of them are saying well it's not us now but we will soon we are selling assets

[00:26:47] to survive and we're going to run out of those assets at some point it's just a downward spiral.

[00:26:51] But contrary wise beat I mean an incoming Labour government is not going to want to spend more

[00:26:56] which is in a way what this sounds like it would need to be. Well let me put it this way

[00:27:01] I'm certain whichever whichever of the government's come into power and I think they'll have

[00:27:07] to do something about this. Well what the current administration has been doing for the past

[00:27:13] five years is giving little pots of money as sticking plastic in certain areas whether it's

[00:27:21] geographical areas or service areas it's been doing that to try and head off the worst of this

[00:27:27] but they're not going to be able to head off the worst of it. You've got to do something radical

[00:27:33] and what I'm frightened of is that they carry on doing short term fixes whichever

[00:27:39] political party comes into power. The select committee asked the latest local government

[00:27:45] minister when they when they reported it again about this issue for about the seventh time in

[00:27:53] the last 15 years and they said basically they said we've given you all these things that you

[00:28:01] should do about it. What have you done between 2019 and now? And he basically says oh you can't

[00:28:10] basic response was this is such a fundamental issue that will raise so many objections

[00:28:18] that it's the sort of thing you've got to do you've got to do at the start of a long administration

[00:28:24] you can't do it halfway through and you certainly can't do it towards the end of an administration.

[00:28:29] Now what I'm worried about is that they don't start because they've got

[00:28:36] endless excuses for doing something else and and give sorting local government out even if

[00:28:43] they kept the same pot for local government and distributed it more efficiently effectively and

[00:28:51] thoroughly even if they did that I would think it would be a great step forward. But it's a long way

[00:28:56] down on their list but I mean let me make one case that we haven't really been we've kind of

[00:29:00] in agreement on this but you do hear people in central government and certainly in local conservative

[00:29:05] associations say the problem is waste the problem is misuse of the funds that these councils have

[00:29:12] and there are endless examples of them funding all sorts of diversity projects this is the usually

[00:29:18] the bug bear things like that funding massive days to celebrate transgendarism you know you hear

[00:29:25] these things being said and though they say well this is the problem it's local government tried

[00:29:29] to take on too much but also wasting local people's money that's what they need to be held accountable for

[00:29:34] and that's why they get into this financial trouble. Is there any truth in any of that?

[00:29:39] There's bound to be pockets of waste I would say in most services in any service or in any geographical

[00:29:47] area so the real thing is to get some idea of the scale of what we're talking about

[00:29:54] of what you're talking about is cutting down on waste going to resolve financial problems

[00:30:00] of local government as a whole don't make me laugh they've been saying that for God knows how

[00:30:07] and in certain times and in certain parts we've got some indications of how much waste there is

[00:30:13] and how how much improvement local authorities can make but in terms of the level of waste

[00:30:21] certainly in comparison to central government you know and certainly in comparison to central

[00:30:26] government over the last 15 years the amount that is wasted local authorities are far more effective

[00:30:35] efficient and economic than central government is and in the few times we've got the figures

[00:30:43] to calculate them against each other local authorities have been far in advance of central

[00:30:49] government and far in advance of central government agencies in both innovation and in efficiency

[00:30:56] and effectiveness. I can't imagine the central government collecting all bins that would just be

[00:31:01] a disaster wouldn't it you know we know that things are operating well at the local level so

[00:31:06] well we don't in some areas it's not working well but I mean it's you know at least it happens

[00:31:10] you know most of the time so we're getting close to the end now but it sounds like more regionalisation

[00:31:17] and the politics in that case for the planning would be at the regional level rather than a more

[00:31:22] administrative approach at the local level so you take most of the politics out of the local level

[00:31:27] to become administrative functions for that for that regional government and there's another aspect

[00:31:32] which I haven't talked about we'll probably have more time to talk about it now but I made at some

[00:31:36] point I think we're going to realise that the tax system generally is broken and there needs to be

[00:31:41] more of an acceptance that we need to tax wealth more than income and then you start to look at models

[00:31:46] like for example land tax as again you know maybe reducing income tax and charging more for land

[00:31:52] tax and then you start to raise the question we've started looking at local land tax

[00:31:57] who's best placed to collect that and maybe it is more the local level rather than the central

[00:32:02] government level and then then you can start to say well okay if we've got a lot of wealthy people

[00:32:06] or we want to have more wealthy people we need to improve the value of the land how do you

[00:32:10] improve the value of the land in the region you provide better facilities and services

[00:32:14] so then that incentive for local authorities or these regional planning areas

[00:32:20] to improve the lot of local people so that the land tax they gather more in land tax it's got to be

[00:32:24] some sort of model like that but that's that's a sweeping change because it's how central government

[00:32:29] and local government is funded but I mean we need to look at all of that holistically don't we?

[00:32:33] No government wants to open up the whole area of local taxation again I think is that I mean

[00:32:37] we know the history of that with poll tax of course kind of local you know government charge

[00:32:43] the rate system before that I mean this is not an easy area for anyone to operate

[00:32:47] now the one thing I would say is we got rid of the government offices for the regions

[00:32:55] in 2011 and they operated fairly effectively as communications between central governments

[00:33:04] and local government and what we did away was a mechanism for resolving things at a geographical

[00:33:11] scale greater than local authorities and what you're seeing at the moment for partial partial

[00:33:19] and ad hoc you're seeing combined authorities being created and you're seeing

[00:33:27] devoid deals being made when they when realistic you've got a regional scale problems

[00:33:35] and it's got so large that you've got a attempt to deal with it on a greater geographical scale

[00:33:42] and that is just a whole host of inefficiencies the same thing.

[00:33:47] We've got a whole other heads of local areas all negotiating over decisions that would be made

[00:33:52] by one person if it was if it was one regional or one government anyway yeah one you'd want

[00:33:58] a representative body for sure at the regional level well then maybe I'll give out regional

[00:34:03] parlance but it was like like like how London this which was talked about before

[00:34:07] this is a huge area of Peter and thanks so much for talking to us about it um clearly well there

[00:34:13] are ideas there to think about but it sounds to me like something isn't easily going to be sorted

[00:34:18] out any time. But it's getting it's simply and you're not sounding at all optimistic but where

[00:34:22] we're heading we might get another term of government where you know again that the problem

[00:34:27] is just being kicked down the road the can is being kicked further and we see more local services

[00:34:32] suffering but whichever party is empowered you're independent. Yeah I'm

[00:34:39] been in I have been for a long time in party politics a politically restricted post

[00:34:44] I am not a member of any political parties I have never given money to any political parties

[00:34:51] but there used to be a way that we used to do these sort of complicated problems

[00:34:57] in this country and that was we usually gave it we usually give the problem to an independent

[00:35:05] commission for instance a local government commission or a parliamentary commission or a royal

[00:35:10] commission and they come up with the solution and then basically the party political players

[00:35:17] nibble at the edges of that solution and usually those solutions endure the 20 or 30 years

[00:35:24] and basically when we devolve stuff to Scotland that they looked at it and thought

[00:35:30] what we'll do is have an independent commission the Christie commission that looks at all these boundary

[00:35:37] boundary issues and public public services within Scotland and they will come up with an

[00:35:45] ask them to come up with appropriate mechanisms and places to do these things and then when that

[00:35:51] when they reported they essentially implemented a royal the equivalent of a royal commission

[00:35:58] because Scotland is Scotland could only have it as a devolved commission so they had the Christie

[00:36:05] commission in Scotland and they gave it to a load of independent experts and they knocked it about

[00:36:10] for not very long to be honest and come up with came up with a solution that the parties had to

[00:36:18] authorise they did amend some things around the edges they generally put it into ice.

[00:36:26] Right so we've had a fair funding review haven't we I'm not quite sure how much of that's been

[00:36:33] adopted but we need something more fundamental like that kind of commission to sort out this problem

[00:36:37] yeah it would be greater it would embrace what was in the fair funding review and some other

[00:36:43] we haven't got a fit the purpose local audit system hasn't been fit for purpose for some time

[00:36:49] and is certainly not you fit for future purposes so you would want all of those local government

[00:36:56] financial about four mechanisms that I mentioned before and you would want the remit to be those

[00:37:01] four mechanisms and you would want them to come up with a solution that would fit every part of

[00:37:08] no I would want that to happen in the next term of well see if it does I think but Pete thank you so

[00:37:14] much for talking to us and for giving us all that information which very incredibly complicated subdued

[00:37:19] but one that clearly does need addressing just by looking at the kind of crisis we're now in but

[00:37:23] thank you for being with us yeah thank you well thank goodness local councils aren't responsible

[00:37:28] for prisons or are these well no no no no no no no no that is a central government that's a central

[00:37:32] government thing but yes I mean they would make a fine bishop it I suppose yeah and then the central

[00:37:37] government's made quite you know mess of it as well we have so many prisoners we have the highest

[00:37:43] percentage of the population in prison in Europe right which is a little long way behind the

[00:37:49] United States yeah but even so and and the reoffending rates pretty high the prisons themselves are

[00:37:57] well in many cases very badly run and the chart that the capacity because of the funding means

[00:38:04] that the capacity for any actual work that might perhaps pay them for work outside or it's not

[00:38:10] anywhere addresses the offending well it does happen but it's not nearly as good as I love them a

[00:38:14] very old building so as well which is not been in enough investment but it's very hard case to say

[00:38:18] well we're going to invest and make life a bit more comfortable with people in prison the lobby

[00:38:21] yes they have a cozy time in there exactly yes it's a holiday camp yeah a lot of costs so much

[00:38:28] actually that would be the answer wouldn't stick him in a holiday camp can you do you're going to be

[00:38:31] you've been sentenced for four years in butlins well as they often say we're going to cry right

[00:38:35] down with a young offenders institution that's got some more to keep them in eat yeah then it would

[00:38:39] descend them to harrow or eaten or whatever it's extraordinary the amount of money you need for

[00:38:44] these kind of things I mean that's an unfair comparison but it's it indicates that we are

[00:38:48] spending an awful lot of money on something hmmm just think there would be less likely to follow

[00:38:52] a life of crime with the way to harrow and you just get away with it that's how to cover the

[00:38:56] trucks anyway no but it's a serious thing and it needs to be talked about in the dress because it's

[00:39:02] yeah I mean what's the fundamental question is what is the business case for all of this you know

[00:39:06] is there you know is it working so what is this okay why do we send people to prison what do

[00:39:11] we expect to get out of it how much does it cost is it effective yeah well I mean the end is it

[00:39:16] a deterrent umm marginally is it going to change them when they come out are they going to become

[00:39:21] you know so the citizens the result very unlikely does it actually just take them off the streets for

[00:39:26] a bit probably yeah that's about it I know we're sending too many are we sending the wrong people

[00:39:30] to prison as well yeah because judges and our under-heat pressure not to send people to press

[00:39:33] yeah well it's become politicized doesn't it we've almost talked for half an hour what's going on

[00:39:37] next week so let's get off and do that next week that's it for this week thanks for listening in

[00:39:41] this is the why curve me and Roger back again next week thanks for tuning in bye the why curve