Election Day - But Does Your Vote Count?

[00:00:00] The Why Curve, Phil Dobbie and Roger Herring. And to change to a proportional system so that we are all represented. The Why Curve. Of course many people will be listening to this after the election results.

[00:00:40] But we are recording and publishing, actually, where we're publishing on the day of the election, where people are going out to... So we've never had, well I think, we can ask our guest on this. I think 1931 when we elected the National Government.

[00:00:52] That was actually the last time when people voted for government that was a majority government. It's always been less the party. It's always got less than 50% of the vote. Oh right, so straight away ever since then... Yes.

[00:01:04] The party that's elected is the party that most people didn't want. Which is interesting, isn't it? So is there a problem? Or didn't say they didn't want because I mean don't forget you got more and more people who don't vote anyway. Yeah, as well.

[00:01:17] But yeah, I mean, is this issue of... We are in democracy once every five years at least. But most of us, me included up to an ice point, have never really lived anywhere where the person supposedly representing me was there any sense in line with my views.

[00:01:30] Yeah, and of course this idea of the, you know, the Westminster system where you're voting for somebody who's representing your local area. I mean that is important isn't it? And that's why, because if you do want somebody who represent your local area,

[00:01:41] but they're again, are they really doing that? I mean, is that what we know? I mean, how many people have you stopped in a street? Would even know who their MP was? Mmm, that's the thing. Yeah.

[00:01:50] And so our whole idea of the system, yes, you do need representation for sure. But I mean, maybe something that we'll talk about this, but multi-member constituencies, bigger constituencies.

[00:01:59] Yeah, but where at least you know, you have three people saying there's a fair chance that one of them might actually be... You're politically... Yes, exactly. Yeah, broaden the area rather than local fans. We've got local councils. Yeah.

[00:02:11] You know, so if it's being represented on local issues like who's fixing the pot holes, you vote on that. You don't need that level to be brought up to Westminster, so maybe the system is just a bit out of date. You think? The British British system? No.

[00:02:24] How did change it? That's the problem because it is a, you know, it's like a constitutional change. And the big point which I'm sure we were here or certainly was all about is that it does provide a kind of majority.

[00:02:34] I mean, you, you know, maybe an unfair one. Yeah. But the argument is we've had strong governments. Well, we kind of haven't this you look over the past few years. But strong government, which, you know, those terrible people on the continent never had. Exactly.

[00:02:46] Well, joining us now is someone who really knows about all this and that's Dr. Heins Brandon Bergs, the director of the lecture and politics at the University of Strathpline. Also, co-author of the declining representativeness of British politics and why it matters. Heinz, thanks for being with us.

[00:03:00] I suppose the, I suppose that the key point you'll see is, is the system really actually not democratic? I wouldn't go that far, that it's not democratic. I mean, it's, it's, in a lot of people tend to, to argue that that's, of course,

[00:03:19] it makes it easier for, for governments to be formed and into your void situations. Like you have in many countries with very, very proportional systems that that you need long coalition formation process and I mean currently in the Netherlands there are over half a year since they

[00:03:36] election until they have informed the government and they have records of taking about a year or so to do it. And so you don't have these problems. I mean, in the UK, I remember in 2010 with the coalition government there was already a

[00:03:49] people because it took four days to form a government. So normally you have it within a day and it makes easy to to form governments and to end for governments, which most most people also don't know.

[00:04:03] There's research which showed that that under first-parts to post, you have governments do, or are fulfilling more of their, their pledges, their election, money-festive pledges and promises, then their coalition governments were where it's more about compromising. So there's certainly advantages to it.

[00:04:19] And I guess that's the point, isn't it? Because very often people say, well, you know, having some form of proportionary representation is a much fair approach than having a first-parts-to-post system, but if you've got, say, 45%

[00:04:32] and 55% and you get some sort of coalition formed or, you know, you've got two representatives there in Parliament who are almost equal in number, you know, you're not actually going to gain anything done on you. They're just going to block each other for five years.

[00:04:47] It's just going to be completely an effective government. Well, it depends how how coalition's work and they can work better and they can be more difficult. And I think the more, I mean, we see fragmentation with people choosing various different

[00:05:06] political parties in all countries, just like you see in Britain. I just looked at the numbers this morning and this is probably going to be the most fragmented vote that that a British election has ever seen.

[00:05:19] Where you have, well, you still have 140% party, but otherwise you have a number of 20 and 15% and 12% parties and so on. So a lot of people have different preferences. And that's first pasta poses, particularly bad, represented. Yeah, so that's it.

[00:05:37] So I mean, we don't, of course, you know, there will be people listening to this podcast after the results are out. So we've got to be careful about make ourselves seem foolish by quoting statistics that might be completely disproven.

[00:05:47] But I'm looking at the electoral calculus which shows they've been predicting how many seats people are going to get based on the number of votes. So they're predicting labor is going to get 470 seats. That's 72% of the seats with only 40% of the votes.

[00:06:01] So a mass majority for seats, but still a minority of votes. I mean, if it was proportional representation, then only get 260 seats. The Conservatives would have 130 seats and he is the rub reform, which are predicted to only get seven seats would get 110 seats by that system.

[00:06:19] So I'm sure a lot of reform voters if they get a poor showing the number of seats are going to be looking at saying, well, how is that fair? Because we have, you know, claimed such a high proportion of the total number of votes.

[00:06:31] Yes, and I mean, they've kind of experienced that before in 2015 when it was UKIP. And they basically didn't win ends. They won the one seat from that defect authority who was reelected, but otherwise they didn't get anything for 13.8% off the vote.

[00:06:49] And I mean, Farash has been one of those who has been arguing for proportional representation because he's always left party stats. They're basically don't have a chance. I mean, the lived terms are much further. The lived terms actually will probably have there more, most proportional results ever.

[00:07:09] Because they're much more concentrated in their vote and much more targeted. They benefit now from tactical voting. So they could actually get their best ever result in terms of seats on one of their worst efforts in terms of wheelchair.

[00:07:26] Well, that's so, that in a sense, he's ridiculous, isn't I mean, I came back to my first point about is this really democratic? It is an argument for saying if it's only circumstances that lend representation in the end

[00:07:39] where your vote happens to be, whether it's concentrated or not. And I don't think I, in my entire history voting, I've ever actually been a constituency where I had political agreement with the person who's elected to represent me.

[00:07:52] And the sense my vote in all those elections has never counted. I mean, that can't be democratic. No, it's very problematic that usually ought to Britain as a country that has a lot of very,

[00:08:05] very safe seats, safe labour seats, safe conservative seats where you have, they win 67% off the vote, which is only broken when you have a massive landslide like now in a particle lapsing like the conservatives and suddenly they could lose seats where they previously

[00:08:23] won 60% off the vote, but in a normally election that's a bit closer between labour and the conservatives. You basically have the majority of seats where there's no context. And voters in these constituencies are not really participating in any other form than

[00:08:43] I don't know of sort of an expressive form, okay? They register their vote preference, but it's predecided in their constituency. It's going to win anyway. So it's not really democratic, I mean, the basic level, the people, individual people are not

[00:08:59] able to express their views in a way that means that the problem with all of this is that it's because it's based on relatively small constituencies, isn't it? Because the idea is you want your local representative in Westminster. But is that a bit old fashioned?

[00:09:12] Just before you came on Hans, we were talking about one of the ideas which we didn't really explore was the idea that maybe rather than smaller constituencies. We had a bit like Scotland really where you had a bit more of a proportional representation

[00:09:25] type approach for a larger region. So you have your electoral region and your constituency. So you still vote with constituency member. We might have five or six members for a larger area, which might be the northwest of England, for example.

[00:09:38] So you get almost a mix of both systems, that seems like a more realistic way of representing the variety of views in a particular region because the local area, I mean we've got local councils, we've got local forms of government.

[00:09:54] Do we really need that localness to that degree represented in Westminster? Well, for me, as a German group in a federal system where you have different levels of the government, it's state level and then also relatively strong local government.

[00:10:10] This whole idea that you need constituency representation at a national level was always a bit alien to me. But clearly it matters and I mean that's why you have place like Scotland or Osirone New Zealand moving to a mixed system where you combine party representation with the government.

[00:10:34] And that's a representation with constituency representation. And actually I think the system in New Zealand is better than the system in Scotland or right now does it work in New Zealand just for information? Well basically in New Zealand you have a total of 122 seats or so in Parliament,

[00:10:54] 71 of them are constituency. Just normal, normal first-party post elections. And then there's another 51 seats which are lists seats. And they have one national nationwide list for all of New Zealand, which is the benefit compared to Scotland with the age regions.

[00:11:12] So this will be a list by each party and they would then get seats in proportion to that. Yeah, you basically have two votes. So you have a constituency vote and you have a party vote.

[00:11:23] And basically the constituencies that party wins are then being taken as part of their total allocation of seats, which is based on their party vote. And that works quite well. You can have some so-called overhang seats where a party wins more constituencies than it actually

[00:11:46] is entitled to seats overall. So you can calculate it through guests that they are so for what would mean for this election in the UK if you had that. But given if there wouldn't something like 470 seats or so, even if you would say divide Britain in just 400 constituencies,

[00:12:07] so a bit larger than they are now and then you would have 250 lists seats which would be just about the same system as in New Zealand. Then Labour would win something between 50 and 80 of an seats, so there would have more seats than would be their proportional shares.

[00:12:25] So you would have a bit of a lot side it result but not in the middle of the very strong government wouldn't you because one party would dominate everything. No, but Labour would not be able to win a majority of seats.

[00:12:40] They would win say if you had 400 seats they would win something like 280 of the constituencies, but they wouldn't get any lists seats in addition. So they would have 280 out of the 650 seats.

[00:12:53] They would be by far the largest party but they would need to coalition partner only they could choose between either the Greens or the the Lib Dems as the coalition partners which would all both make possible partners.

[00:13:08] Whereas if you had a perfectly proportional and a system then Labour would most likely need two coalition partners. So it could just about be enough with just one of them depending on whether Labour actually get over 40%.

[00:13:25] You can't have too many people in Parliament obviously in New Zealand because there's got to be other people left to do stuff in the country. Just over the water in Australia they have a country I know well the elections there are run on preferences.

[00:13:44] I in this country trying to say for this country for example I might say well I want to vote for the Lib Dems.

[00:13:49] If the Lib Dems don't win I want my vote to go to the Labour party and if I don't say anything I just say one of the Lib Dems the Lib Dems might decide themselves.

[00:13:59] If we lose a seat we want our votes to go to the Labour Party so you've got this system of preferences where it sort of filters down.

[00:14:07] That seems to work fairly well I'm wondering what the I mean it does mean theoretically that you could have someone who comes in third.

[00:14:15] For example who then gets all the votes filtered through to them and they actually come in first place and the the person who got the votes. So it could be seen as a distortion but there again you are taking your kind of people's second and third choices.

[00:14:30] Well and I don't know is that a more fair system to think. Not really I mean the thing is it would probably if you're quite that now from what we know about slipped and green Labour voters or so.

[00:14:44] They would probably transfer preference between them the three parties which which would mean that that Labour would probably win under the alternative voters many seats as they wouldn't in the Western and state lecture. So it could be more.

[00:14:59] Yeah and they could even win more and the Conservatives I mean there was a referendum but this of course in 2011 and it was defeat.

[00:15:06] He's a autoparty because to the lips who were the ones who wanted to have a referendum what to have a referendum was something completely different. And weren't particularly into a V.I. that so nobody wasn't favouring.

[00:15:19] But in that in that system you would see for example it would mean that you could vote for the reform party and say if they don't win we want to get a turies as our next choice or. I mean the preferences to reform and how much of a.

[00:15:34] Yeah but these are still I mean there they that sense they are majority of system not to be around the system because ultimately each candidate to get selected has support from a majority so so majority there may at least some way in their preference order.

[00:15:50] And that you have other systems like the French system with the two rounds system where people can vote for whatever they want to in the first round and then the two or three top candidates vote through into the second round but but all of them create.

[00:16:00] All of them create the same amount of distortion in the end as first pass to Pell Stus. So if you have one party dominating an election like Labour does now they would under all of these systems get a vast majority which which I think is a problem that that.

[00:16:16] I mean it would owe if he would only allow people to express their preference but they don't get representation for that necessarily the Greens would not necessarily win any more seats even though. They might have.

[00:16:31] 13 14% of first preference votes and and that might even be more frustrating for people to see well this is actually what we wanted and we get nothing of it.

[00:16:40] So so I'm really saying that you know with all its faults perhaps and and I have to say a lot of people listening thing but this is vastly complicated with the AV or single transferable vote or.

[00:16:50] Topping up from party list is all seems very complicated whereas a simple system.

[00:16:55] Is perhaps the best and easiest to people to understand much like the one we have now but I think it's not the French system quite easy to understand in that you go I mean a path in the fact.

[00:17:05] I think I actually I mean the single transferable vote is is one of the systems I quite like because it.

[00:17:16] The Irish aren't a million times smarter than other electors and they don't have a problem using it and and squash people has had the debt to it in locally elections as well.

[00:17:26] It's still in the by the country into relatively not oversized consequences but but each consistency has has multiple representatives so. Plain had that so the single transferable vote if I vote if you get over a quote you're in. Yeah, but then any subsequent candidates.

[00:17:48] I've got to get over that quote and it's where you put a one two three four whatever only yeah but that's like a preference system that isn't it is a preferential system and you can express as you can just give a preference to your top candidate and nothing else or you can.

[00:18:04] Have a list of six or seven preference in there and then they use as it might be something you said to me that they they that that system like an Australia distorts democracy. Yeah, but the system in Ireland or used also in Northern Ireland.

[00:18:17] It produces relatively proportion results because he they are not single member constituency so so you have to.

[00:18:25] The typical constituencies in Ireland has four five members so so you get four five representatives of parties elected sometimes that can be two from the same party but but more than not huge you have. Three or four different parties represented so.

[00:18:41] So you can have a conservative candidate a labor candidate you could have a green candidate and a reform candidate all from well from stations.

[00:18:48] So we had I don't know the northeast of England for example, if we said, well, okay, let's pull T side and you castle together and let's give you six representatives in investments.

[00:18:58] So those six one gets over the quoted there in and then the next ones you basically take the next highest and the next highest or people choose.

[00:19:08] What you basically do is so you look first that is anybody already over the quote is if somebody has enough votes which is sort of the number of seats plus one that's what you divide to total votes by anybody is over that quota they get elected and any of their votes over the quota.

[00:19:29] So you look at their second preference so if first a labor candidate gets elected because he or she had had over the quota then to look at what was the second preference and to those candidates, those votes go that.

[00:19:45] And then you look at who is who is the least that the one with the least votes and they get eliminated and they are votes are reallocate and then the next one was the least with the least votes and they are votes get allocated until someone else gets over the quota and that takes a number of counts when.

[00:20:03] When these different candidates are being eliminated or elected and ultimately you then get your your five or six candidates who get elected to party.

[00:20:13] And this is in Ireland this is the system used in Ireland. This is the system used in Ireland. This is the system used in Ireland is the system ought to use for storm and elections in Northern Ireland and the system used for locally elections and Scotland.

[00:20:24] And to take the count of votes in Ireland to eat it, it's it sounds like the average journalist covering elections would have to have a degree in hyper mathematics to try to.

[00:20:34] Not at all I mean the thing is that by now they have it all it's it's basically electronic now.

[00:20:42] But I lived in Ireland in 1990 that's where it my PhD and that was my first introduction to STE which was a very strange system for me to get my head around back then they they actually had to physically count the votes and then.

[00:20:56] So the sort of they took a random part of the votes or whatever was less left and and allocated them now they're basically look at.

[00:21:05] Do it electronically so when a candidate gets eliminated or when a candidate when a candidate gets elected and they basically have them so so there's maybe 3000 votes which need to be re allocated. So basically look at the the overall.

[00:21:24] Prefer for a second preferences for that that all the voters of that candidate had and proportionally they the votes get then allocated to to to the second preferences. Turn up.

[00:21:36] I have to say listening to this. I suppose I can hear people saying well it does sound quite I take on board you're saying it isn't complicated can be done and a lot of people do it.

[00:21:45] But a lot of people say well it's a simple system is that actually such a big democratic deficit from everything you've seen.

[00:21:51] In the current system we have in the UK for Westminster elections that means it really needs to be reformed. Do you think there is an actual democratic deficit in that sense I think there's a deficit in the sense also that that you you have these parties like labor and the conservators which have to be the.

[00:22:09] Some brothers and we've seen over the past few years how this functional the conservators were as a party we've seen also with the co bin years and and the fallout after. Sort of.

[00:22:21] Being kicked out of the party how how awkward partly an umbrella the labor part can be and there only have to be these big umbrella parties because of the electron system because you do you have to be this big coalition that needs to win any election.

[00:22:36] And that doesn't mean that government is that governing parties are a more coherent then government coalitions in other systems net. But it's a Germany for example you have mass the you know the social democrats the Christian democrats these big overall.

[00:22:51] Covering organizations and you have a different electoral system there surely that that's the same property they less functional to they have less factions within them and whom that's what you're saying.

[00:23:00] And they're saying that they don't need to you could break break up into different parties they've been cut down to sites and so so I would say that that the parties internally are somewhat more coherent then then the British equivalent but but by now they are 28 25% party and.

[00:23:20] They are no longer these these big catch all parties that they were in the 1980s and 90s. Yeah, so Jeremy Corbyn might have formed his own party for example so Jeremy Corbyn could be a ticket alongside Kia Stama because we have a proportional system. Yeah absolutely.

[00:23:35] Yeah and you you you might have rather than the the purchase saw through the Brexit years in the conservative party day they may have split into into a more.

[00:23:48] One nation Tory party and and more right wing party or so which which which would compete more direct you with with for that which is genuinely the air.

[00:24:00] The alternative for Dutchland is is letting is being let into the system in way that some people might say well that isn't it better to have the system out here where effectively maybe unjust cleat but the political system doesn't have to have parties like reform actually in parliament.

[00:24:15] Yeah, but does that necessarily help. I mean on the one end you you have you have the danger of of large parties being.

[00:24:25] You'd like to see in the US what happened to the Republican party with a dollar Trump they don't have small extremists parties but they have have one of the largest one of the two main parties in their country being by by any.

[00:24:39] The political party in the political party. So you you can have this entry as an and sort of parties being taken over by. Have a. I have a. I lost to take over of a political party. You I don't think that.

[00:24:57] I mean you you also have these these repeated successes for for populous parties being you keep in the 2015 the Brexit party in the European election. I mean, you know, the party in the 90 now.

[00:25:08] The reform party and they do have an impact even though they may not win seats but you wouldn't have had the whole Brexit referendum with with our do you could vote in 2015.

[00:25:19] So it's it's it's not necessarily that that Britain is completely safe from populace and you had a Tory party which became increasing more populist under Boris Johnson then as as a response to to the Brexit vote.

[00:25:34] And it was because not because they thought that they were going to lose to another party but they were worried that that party. Was going to.

[00:25:43] A little where their votes which gives labor greater chance, which is hardly democracy is if the found that you know that's what we're seeing now that the Tory party is getting its vote taken away from it because there are people voting reform even though reform and not going to win those seats and labor wins as a result.

[00:25:59] And so they've got people who are actually choosing. Two sides to the right of politics, allowing the left side of politics. I mean that's electoral deficit.

[00:26:07] That a democratic deficit isn't it? Yeah, just it's this time it's going the other direction then it did in 2019 when the Brexit party started to sit in half of constituencies and that meant that the conservatives could win a big majority.

[00:26:22] And so on just 43% of the vote because the the actual majority vote which was.

[00:26:28] Romain and and and and to the left of the conservatives was split between two or three parties and the Tories would win a lot of seats because of that and now the the rise of reform actually has increased the this proportionality that this election will produce by quite right.

[00:26:48] And apatite do you think there is Heinz they've had change in this in our system because I mean we saw you mentioned the 2011 referendum which was lost.

[00:26:58] Do you not think for a start the party that gets into power on the current system has no incentive to change the system even though labor voted at their last conference that they should 120 to the vote that way.

[00:27:10] And you know, is there enough of a public demand do you think for any kind of change? I think there could be enough demand but you would need one of the big parties coming across to that. I mean you have now the conservatives complaining about this this.

[00:27:24] Meaningless concept of of a super majority for for labor. But it does sound a bit like they're unhappy with with the first possible system system when it doesn't benefit them. Yeah, this was a nice right.

[00:27:38] And you've just when you don't want to change the system that's put you in. So look there is a more complicated method this apparently is the owner the mathematicians favorite is the condos same method. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this.

[00:27:48] So this is where you use on the ballot paper you say for every party who you prefer given the choice between two so for example, you'd say do prefer Tory over labor.

[00:28:00] And now okay, what about Tory versus the Lib Dems? What about Labour versus the Lib Dems and you get asked all of those questions this is what mathematicians like so then use basically saying yes well I like Tory over labour and Tory over the Lib Dems but not over reform for a good.

[00:28:16] Not over reform for example a prefer reform overtury so reform would get a few enough people voting already. I think you're a little bit more serious.

[00:28:24] Because you know that's the most mathematical math theory you're a conglose and I'll raise it with Dehont to hunt my favorite Dehont. You know about Dehont kind stench.

[00:28:32] Yeah, I mean the condos see a thing is it's not an electrical system that anyone is proposing it's it's just that's how you can sort of make a case that well any individual may have

[00:28:44] transitive preferences so if I prefer labour over the conservatives and labour and conservatives or and so on you don't have certain preferences but societies do have certain preferences which basically is one way of mathematically proving that no election result on any

[00:29:04] Electro system in many cases is actually creating a necrilybryam so it's it's not a meaningful result at what's the same on every electoral system or so.

[00:29:16] The Dehont system is basically one of the way I mean it's it's just in proportional systems where where you have to allocate seeds you need to find a way.

[00:29:26] How to allocate them and how to get these quotas according to which seeds are allocated to different parties and some are more proportional and some are less proportional but they're they are basically a technical feature of an electrical system which.

[00:29:41] Which is not I mean once you start trying to explain to the general public how these formulas work you really turn them off any idea of electro reform because it becomes too technical it's a complicated I mean there should simply be if.

[00:29:57] If you had a simple question to people do do you like what what the UK system is doing which is basically emphasizing.

[00:30:06] Through an election the selection of a government over parliamentary representation because in terms of parliamentary representation a large number of people get overlooked by the by the system.

[00:30:20] But the system is relatively good at creating governments and simple governments and make it easy for them to form and to do what they want.

[00:30:29] But it does sound that the best system is you know as you're talking about like we see in storm on this idea that you you have a region where you have a number of votes and it's.

[00:30:40] The original representation almost doesn't it within within that area and so the the US electoral systems and interesting one isn't it because that's that's almost like when you've got those areas defined because they're the states but that's I mean if they would if they were smart they'd be saying well let's do that on a proportional representation basis but it's.

[00:30:58] Nobody who has just to be with a state you in the state you are system is even worse than here I mean essentially it's the same system it's you also first pass the post.

[00:31:07] For for parliamentary elections or so at state lectures later or the House of Representatives or so but it's it's worse because. They they they're.

[00:31:17] They have a lot of jerry mandarin which which is sort of setting constituency boundaries in the way that that benefits one party over the other you also have a lot of collusion between parties which means that on average 90% of all senators and representatives get re elected each election I mean they're there's there's all safe seats you.

[00:31:36] All safe seats you also have in many state elections uncontested seats so the Republicans give up on certain seats in California because they can never win one so they don't even put up a candidate and vice versa in in other states so so there's even less involvement and less representation.

[00:31:54] So in less than what you're saying is there is there is really no.

[00:31:59] Particularly when the resistance and they are better or worse perhaps but nothing I think what you say really represents perhaps what an electorate would want to be or not in a perfect way nothing can be perfect I I would just think that there's certain things that.

[00:32:16] That British voters do value so so you can't completely do away with.

[00:32:21] Constitutions who representation I think whether that means like the solution to that can either be the New Zealand solution which which has been a success in New Zealand and they had to later referendom confirming that they like this electoral system.

[00:32:36] You voters use their two votes is basically the same system as in Germany the only my experience in Germany and looking at German data is German still make any use of that's because Germans have no sense of constituency representation whereas New Zealanders vote very differently for constituency candidates and they vote for parties.

[00:32:55] And they're quite happy about it and you have both of both the best of both worlds in a way that you do have constituents who are presentation but you're also very proportion loud comes and representation in Parliament.

[00:33:09] The alternative the other way would would be something like like the single transfer of the vote in storm at all in Ireland.

[00:33:16] Where you would have larger constituencies and everyone would not just have to you represented by the winner of the constituency which for the majority is is very often not someone they voted for but you have four five representatives of different parties so everyone in the constituency or the vast majority of people in these larger constituencies would get.

[00:33:38] So I like that one of the one of the reasons.

[00:33:42] He did. And actually you know one of the benefits of that as well because I'm one of the problems we've got in the UK is that obviously so much is concentrated in London and the southeast and people living at north or in the west country or other parts of the country are sort of like almost a whim of what you know Westminster decides.

[00:33:58] If you were to say we had that approach and you had I don't know a few big parties few big areas in the north thing and for example.

[00:34:05] You're very keen on it. You might see the rise of like a northern powerhouse party or whatever all of a sudden the northern league like in Italy.

[00:34:12] Well, okay, who might get it and might get in there maybe slightly politically different but they you know they get enough to say well, okay this is what we promised for the north of England and they get representation in Westminster and we start to shift that balance a little bit.

[00:34:26] Well, Heinz let me let we got to draw this pretty close to an NN but what would you I mean if someone guarantees and what do you think would best fit Britain.

[00:34:35] Four Westminster in terms of a change from the current system what would you say I would probably say the New Zealand system. But but the single transferable voters is more difficult to sell on the other end I would basically say you.

[00:34:51] You would need to have a referendum and not on a particular electoral system but but on whether people want to stick with first pass the poster whether they want to switch to a more or fully proportional system.

[00:35:06] And then it should basically be done I mean you why would you want to necessarily come from people with what exactly particular electoral system they they should. Should prefer because some are more difficult to understand than others.

[00:35:22] So how New Zealanders they had a referendum and it worked they decided we do want to retain constituencies but we want to proportional parliament.

[00:35:31] And and they accepted that and and I don't necessarily think that British people would would be a poster 2011 they didn't so New Zealand had a great examples of that work for them but they had another vote.

[00:35:44] Another referendum which didn't work for them it was a big deficit the democratic deficit in that people were finatical about getting the union jack off the New Zealand flag.

[00:35:54] And so they had a two stage process and the first stage was well we've got to choose the flag first and so people went and voted so they had five you know so they got a whole bunch mocked up and then at committee chose.

[00:36:08] Two or three I think and people voted on the two or three in the first election to arrive at what the flag would be then people went to vote saying well what do you think so we changed this flag or should we stay with the union jack and of course most people said no I don't like this flag.

[00:36:23] So they would stick with the union jack even though most people wanted to change the fact sounds a bit like Euro voting to me I think. Well you have a jury and then you have the popular vote that's the system I think I do. There's no purpose.

[00:36:34] The problem with referendum is always what kind of question has been asked and how it is asked and and that's quite problematic but but the main thing for electoral reform would be that you wouldn't need one of the major parties come behind it and that's of course the problem now with Labour they have no incentive to do so.

[00:36:52] Even though a lot of their party members I actually in favor of proportion representation and in general I think if you look across party members of all the different British parties who would find us from majority four.

[00:37:08] So all to very engaged in politics and many of them are in parties and suffering under the system and it's party leaders. Yeah well problematica think because they see the benefits for them of 30 don't go for Christmas.

[00:37:22] It is all and it is all in the wording is that when you write when you come to so for example that that question. What do you think about the idea of leaving all those leeches and bureaucrats in the real parliament. Maybe that could be wordy.

[00:37:35] Just before we go I don't know if you either of you have watched it's a very old movie but Peter Cook movie from the 19 so it's called the rise and rise of Michael River. Have you seen that one? It's ages ago. It ages ago absolutely.

[00:37:48] Very old but he was he basically allowed people to vote on absolutely everything and people got he promised that people would vote that have more saying government.

[00:37:57] Everyone voted for him on that basis and so he just flooded people with choices for every single decision that had to be made and in the end.

[00:38:06] People were so sick of it he got on TV and said well this will be your last vote your vote as to whether we ever have a vote again and he basically became a dictator.

[00:38:15] Maybe that's the one suggestion one suggestion I could make is what they what they introduced five six seven years ago in India is you have a non of the above option. They were definitely we get an each election millions of people choosing that.

[00:38:33] All you need to stand as the non above you in the biggest democracy in the world. Very good hands good to talk thanks so much. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.

[00:38:42] You know, a little bit to one of the little bit democratic deficit of 1975 when John Care the governor general basically sack the government. So I mean if what's Shane. Yes, Shane and history on this podcast. I'm very proud of that.

[00:38:55] I was in King Charles didn't have a gumption to say well I'm going to sack the Tory party and because not in a very good job. And you know, when when is too long. That's the only means another question we're going to talk to all day about this.

[00:39:07] How long should of time a parliament be? No, it's five years long and yes, yes, well you had a good system maybe would stick with ten but then you wouldn't want Rishi there for another five years would you.

[00:39:14] Well how many elections do we want to get oh God not another election. So lady, first of all yes, yeah, no, we don't want that we don't want that. Oh I know we are done with politics now. We've had to finish a few weeks of it.

[00:39:25] I think we are all going on with that. We only need a holiday. Yes, but where are we going to go and are we going to upset the local we be welcome? Because it has to be said there's a quite a total of back against tourism.

[00:39:36] Yes, in the canaries, there are people protesting against tourism taking too much of the resources, causing problems on there. So they have to go back to their to their main business which is what? I know. That's the problem.

[00:39:51] But in many places like Venice, they're trying to stop people going there and as many numbers of course. It's quite a pushback generally against the ways in which tourism does dominate certain parts of the world in Japan.

[00:40:03] They actually put up a screen to talk people taking pictures of Mount Fuji, for example from a certain place because they found it was causing them problems. So I think what you should look at is how we cope with tourism.

[00:40:15] I mean do we cope with tourism? Are we a major problem for some parts of the world? Or in fact, bringing them lots and lots of money and income and basically supporting their economy? And there's the whole second home thing as well.

[00:40:25] Which is another area that's like Airbnb homes. So there we are. How you made you feel guilty about politics? We're now going to make you feel guilty about your business as well. That's right, you're not going anywhere. Stay at home and do with whoever you've just elected.

[00:40:38] Alright, that's next week. Thanks for listening in today. It's been a fun one. That's the YK will see you next week. The Y curve.