The Gaza Effect

[00:00:00] The Y curve with Phil Dobby and Roger hearing.

[00:00:03] Britain is in an election year with grave concerns about the economy, public services and jobs.

[00:00:09] But watch the dominant factor in the latest by-election.

[00:00:12] The Gaza War.

[00:00:14] The horrific scenes from the conflict 2000 miles away have cast a shadow over UK politics.

[00:00:20] Kia Starmer is facing revolts from his backbenchers over support for Israel. Rishi Sunag makes a rare speech outside Downing Street to call for public order and protection

[00:00:29] for MPs. Accusations of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia dominate the airwaves.

[00:00:35] So how did a war in which the UK has little involvement or influence come to create a

[00:00:40] political crisis here?

[00:00:42] The why?

[00:00:43] Curve.

[00:00:47] So we're in a situation now where what is the main thing really that's happening in British politics

[00:00:51] is to do with something that we don't have any control over it.

[00:00:55] Well, yeah, for the agenda that's being driven by the politicians.

[00:00:58] But I think for most people,

[00:01:00] you know, the real issues are

[00:01:02] cost of living, the rising prices.

[00:01:06] It's not what they're out demonstrating in the streets about it.

[00:01:08] Well, yeah, that's the thing.

[00:01:10] It's all these massive rallies, you see, are nothing to do with any of that.

[00:01:13] Yeah. It's to do with Islamophobia, it's to do with anti-Semitism, it's to do with

[00:01:17] Gaza, it's to do with Israel.

[00:01:19] Yeah. And it's not though, is it? I mean, the actual, the protests are against Islamophobia or

[00:01:25] It's not though, is it? I mean the actual, the protests are against Islamophobia or against,

[00:01:30] you know, against any political, particular religion, by and large, those protests are people saying, hang on a second, there's 30,000 people getting killed in Gaza, we can't let that go.

[00:01:36] There are protests against anti-Semitism, there are people together and saying,

[00:01:40] we are suffering anti-Jews, suffering anti-Semitism, and we need to protest about that. So it's going backwards and forwards. But the point is really, why is it that this has grabbed

[00:01:49] so hard? And it's a huge embarrassment to Kiyostama. He couldn't decide how to phrase the resolution.

[00:01:56] What an immediate ceasefire a humanitarian pours.

[00:02:01] And fighting because the SNP has unfilled us.

[00:02:03] Because everyone feels the way they're trading on eggshells over all of this, don't they?

[00:02:07] Because you obviously don't want to be declared anti-Semitic.

[00:02:11] And there's the question mark about what is anti-Semitic actually?

[00:02:15] So if you are against Israel, are you anti-Semitic?

[00:02:18] If you're quite happy for Israel to exist, but you think Netanyahu is the wrong man to be running the country,

[00:02:23] is that?

[00:02:24] Or you're just against what they're doing in Gaza. exist, but you think Netanyahu is the wrong man to be running the country. Is that, yeah?

[00:02:25] Or you just against what they're doing in Gaza.

[00:02:26] I mean, there's loads of raisement.

[00:02:27] But at the same time, you've also got people saying, well, hang on, if you go and protest

[00:02:31] about what's going on in Gaza by implication, you're supporting Hamas, which is considered

[00:02:35] by the UK government to be a terrorist group and all the rest of it.

[00:02:38] Yeah, that's quite a big jump though, isn't it?

[00:02:39] Don't you say that you're supporting Hamas?

[00:02:40] A lot of people say that.

[00:02:42] A lot of the opponents say it.

[00:02:44] Yeah. But I mean, if you are, if you're against the killing, it doesn't mean that you're supporting Hamas. So you're saying a lot of people say that, a lot of your payments say it. Yeah.

[00:02:45] But I mean, if you are, if you're against the killing, it doesn't mean that you are, you

[00:02:49] know, that you're supporting Hamas, which is obviously an awful organization.

[00:02:54] How can you support them?

[00:02:55] This is a big jump to say that, you know, Israel is allowed to march into this territory,

[00:03:02] kill so many people to fight Hamas with so much

[00:03:07] collateral damage. Well, but then, you know, they projected, the slogan they

[00:03:10] projected onto Big Ben was from the river to the sea, which is one of the...

[00:03:14] Someone did that. Someone did that, but someone involved in all this, and you

[00:03:17] hear that chant at these demonstrations, and that is by definition a way of

[00:03:20] saying there should be no Israel. So that's what it means. But that is, but

[00:03:24] someone did that.

[00:03:25] You know, not the majority of the population.

[00:03:27] So some extremists, you could say, did that.

[00:03:30] And this is obviously getting some extremists

[00:03:33] who are doing extreme things.

[00:03:35] I mean, not hugely extreme things.

[00:03:37] I mean, they are saying things which are offending people.

[00:03:39] Yes.

[00:03:40] There's not slaughter and killings happening

[00:03:41] in this country, thank goodness.

[00:03:43] And, you know, so you have to be thankful for that.

[00:03:44] And we also don't have much influence or power and what's going on.

[00:03:47] The US perhaps has some influence on Israel.

[00:03:51] But all this fight about what we should say in parliament, a statement or whatever it

[00:03:54] is, makes absolutely no difference what actually happens on the ground in Gaza.

[00:03:59] So it's a really bizarre situation where our politics is dictated in this way.

[00:04:04] Maybe it's because the question raised very often,

[00:04:07] well, why are you not protesting against Hamas?

[00:04:10] To which the answer is, well, they are a terrorist organization.

[00:04:13] There's no point in, let's take it as red that nobody supports Hamas.

[00:04:18] I mean, some do, but by and large, the majority of the population don't.

[00:04:21] So there's a bit of a wasted protest.

[00:04:23] The reason I think people are protesting is because they want the situation to change and they feel as though they've

[00:04:27] got some political leverage. So if they can leverage our government to change its stance,

[00:04:32] then that may change Israel's attitude as well. If Israel feels as though it's not got international

[00:04:37] support. Because otherwise you'd be saying, well, we should be protesting against Russia,

[00:04:42] for example. And there have been protests in Russia, but we don't have involvement.

[00:04:46] No, and we don't have involvement,

[00:04:47] but what we do, of course,

[00:04:49] you know, in that we are helping...

[00:04:50] But with supplying weapons, yeah.

[00:04:52] But, you know, you can't say,

[00:04:53] well, okay, we want Russia to stop.

[00:04:56] And because our government isn't supporting Russia.

[00:04:58] So it's not a direct parallel.

[00:05:00] Well, there isn't, but I suppose the whole point is that

[00:05:02] why is something that's happening so far away from us and so much virtually out of our control affecting some of the major

[00:05:09] political decisions at the moment.

[00:05:10] And we're actually seeing that going out in front of Downing Street and saying, we've

[00:05:13] got to protect MPs, MPs are under threat, we've got to have order, we've got to restrict

[00:05:17] protests.

[00:05:18] Yeah.

[00:05:19] And this is what he chooses to make a really powerful statement on, not about schools,

[00:05:24] hospitals,

[00:05:25] how much people are earning the state of the economy. None of that.

[00:05:28] Well, that was just a reaction to George Galloway, wasn't it?

[00:05:31] Well, he really has a very interesting character in himself.

[00:05:33] I'm sure we'll touch on that as well in the next half hour.

[00:05:35] But I mean, isn't the answer to all of these questions, the fact that there are, you know,

[00:05:39] close to four million Muslims living in this country, and they will feel that this is an attack on

[00:05:43] them, and you know, and they feel as if there's also a that this is an attack on them and they feel

[00:05:45] as if they're also a large Jewish community who clearly do also feel that they are under threat as

[00:05:50] well right now. But anyway, 300,000, though, it's very much smaller, but obviously not to be ignored

[00:05:57] and they've got a case too. And also people imagine, so they're finding it hard because there's a

[00:06:04] war and in fact, maybe we should lead in with this when we talk to our guest today,

[00:06:08] but they're feeling the pressure because they are coming under attack, you know, a lot of verbal

[00:06:12] attack or written attacks because of what their prime minister, you know, their country's prime

[00:06:17] minister is they are Israelis. If they are Israelis, if they're if they're Israelis, they're not

[00:06:20] necessarily Israeli. Yeah, that's true to distinction.inct. But similarly, what about Russians who are living in this country as well, who

[00:06:28] have been subject to attacks because of what Mr Putin's done? It's control of this. Things

[00:06:34] happening far away that have a big effect on our politics. Let's talk about this with

[00:06:37] Robert Ford, who's professor of political science at Manchester University and Joint

[00:06:40] System. So, Rob, does it strike you as strange that our prime minister has picked on this

[00:06:44] issue as something that's worth stepping outside and I'm going to talk about?

[00:06:49] Is this the overriding issue that Britain is facing? For most people,

[00:06:54] we'll actually know the economy seems a little bit more important to us at the moment.

[00:06:58] I mean, it clearly isn't the overriding issue for the vast majority of voters.

[00:07:03] If we go and look at most of the polling right now,

[00:07:06] the top three issues have been the same

[00:07:09] for most of the past year, two years,

[00:07:11] even the economy, the cost of living, the NHS,

[00:07:16] public services more generally.

[00:07:17] So this isn't even in the top five,

[00:07:19] and in many polls it wouldn't even be in the top 10.

[00:07:23] So why is Rishi talking about this rather than

[00:07:25] all those things that people think are more important? Well, because in all those things

[00:07:29] that people think are more important, he's extremely unpopular and his ideas aren't really going down

[00:07:34] very well with voters. Whereas here is an issue where he feels he is on the same side as the

[00:07:40] electorate and can hopefully open up some divisions in his opponents. So it's

[00:07:45] the classic move that all political leaders try to make, which is to make the political

[00:07:51] argument as far as possible about things that unite your side and divide the other side.

[00:07:55] No, but he's not got the support of the people of Rochester, obviously, where George Galloway

[00:08:00] roamed home over, well, I'm sure he does care about the people of Rotchdale, but by and large, he was there on one single agenda,

[00:08:08] wasn't he? And he got the vast majority of the values.

[00:08:10] And he did for both the Tories and Labour.

[00:08:12] Well, that's true. But there's a few things that we need to sort

[00:08:15] of bear in mind with regards to the whole Rotchdale result.

[00:08:20] I mean, the first is it's a by-election in a general election year. Everyone participating

[00:08:28] in that by-election knows that what they're doing is not electing a government or not even

[00:08:34] electing an MP for several years. You're electing an MP for less than a year. Secondly, there was no

[00:08:40] official Labour candidate because the Labour candidate was mired in scandal, but they couldn't remove him from the ballot paper.

[00:08:48] And thirdly, George Galloway himself is a bit of a one-off.

[00:08:51] I mean, he's the first guy since Winston Churchill to get elected for four different seats.

[00:08:56] That's not because he's in the same bracket as Winston Churchill as a politician, but

[00:09:01] what he does have is a kind of unique appeal, a unique protest appeal in a very particular

[00:09:08] kind of seat.

[00:09:10] All three of the seats he's won since Labour chucked him out 20 years ago have been seats

[00:09:14] with large Muslim communities where people are very angry about Britain's foreign policy

[00:09:20] or Labour's foreign policy or both.

[00:09:22] Bethel Green and Beau, Bradford West and now Rochdale.

[00:09:25] It seems odd, though, what you say is right,

[00:09:28] but for example, the reason the Labour candidate was disowned by Labour

[00:09:31] was to do with anti-Semitism, which was in regard to Gaza.

[00:09:35] Why is it, Rob, that this situation that has been going on for many months now,

[00:09:39] obviously horrible seeing the every night on the television,

[00:09:43] the terrible things, suffering that's going on there. Why is this conflict having such a big infact influence on British

[00:09:51] politics, whether with the Labour Party, the Tory Party or elsewhere?

[00:09:53] Well, I think the short answer is because it's a thing that people who really care a lot about

[00:10:00] politics care a lot about. It's one of those issues that doesn't necessarily drive a wedge so

[00:10:05] much between the traditional supporters of labour and the Conservatives as driver wedge between the

[00:10:11] activists and everybody else. I mean, we've all seen, week after week now for many months,

[00:10:18] the marches that are taking place over the Gaza conflict. And you know, there are lots of people

[00:10:23] on those marches, but this is a big country of 70 million people a hundred thousand people on the

[00:10:28] marches not a very large portion of the electorate and most of these marches

[00:10:32] aren't that big. So what you have is a situation where you've got a sort of

[00:10:37] small minority of people with very very intense preferences who are entirely

[00:10:43] focused on this issue.

[00:10:45] And it's very likely, I think, that things like social media have added to that because

[00:10:49] they're all consuming and sharing pretty horrific stories about what's going on both in that

[00:10:56] conflict and what's going on back here in Britain in the arguments about that conflict.

[00:11:02] But for the vast majority of voters, for the people who think about politics

[00:11:07] for a minute or two a day, the voters who decide the elections, this issue is just not on their

[00:11:13] agenda at all. They're not thinking about it, they're not talking about it, and it's not going

[00:11:19] to decide their votes in the general election. But who is it that turns up to MPs meetings?

[00:11:24] Who is it that emails them? Who is it that emails them?

[00:11:25] Who is it that messages them on social media? It's that first group, the very, very highly

[00:11:30] engaged group, the very activist group. So MPs are hearing a lot about it as well.

[00:11:35] And as a result, they end up arguing with each other about it as well. So it's like we've got

[00:11:41] two parallel worlds, the world of the people who think about politics all the time,

[00:11:45] who are consumed by this, and the world of the people who don't care about politics at all,

[00:11:49] the normal average, everyday, Joe's, who aren't thinking about this at all.

[00:11:52] So, are our streets being hijacked? Are those protests, those 100,000 people? Are they hijacking

[00:11:59] our streets? Are they hostile to our values? Do they have no respect for our democratic traditions?

[00:12:05] Because I presume it's those protests that Rishi Sunak was talking about, and that is

[00:12:08] directly a question from the speech.

[00:12:11] I'm not keen on that language. I think it's a little bit ironic to be giving a speech about

[00:12:15] the importance of not being divisive and polarizing, and then using divisive and polarizing language

[00:12:20] right in the middle of it. I would say people have very sincerely

[00:12:27] howled feelings about this issue on both sides of it. I mean, we are in a multicultural society

[00:12:34] where a lot of people are directly or indirectly exposed to the consequences of this conflict.

[00:12:39] Humza Yousaf for example is talking very movingly about this Jewish MPs with Israeli

[00:12:43] relatives have as well. A lot of people want to express very movingly about this Jewish MPs with Israeli relatives have as well.

[00:12:46] A lot of people want to express their strong feelings about this conflict and they have every

[00:12:50] right to do so in a free society. But you know, as I was mentioning, there's the division between,

[00:12:56] you know, the activist minority and the average voter. But within these protests, there's also

[00:13:00] the division between the average protester and the extreme activist minority of protesters and again here

[00:13:07] I think we see the problem of reporting and of social media

[00:13:11] Which is if you've got a small group of loudmouth gobshites if I can give them a technical name

[00:13:18] Using offensive language

[00:13:21] They will get a disproportionate amount of attention for that

[00:13:26] language, they will get a disproportionate amount of attention for that. Now with people like that, I think the language of hijack probably is appropriate, but in the sense of they are hijacking what

[00:13:31] is generally a broader and more peaceful and more civil protest in order to be angry and divisive.

[00:13:39] And all of us who give them lots of attention and get annoyed with them are kind of doing their job

[00:13:45] for them because that then becomes the way in which the protest gets seen. But anyone who's,

[00:13:51] you know, I mean, I live in Manchester, I've seen these things come through town,

[00:13:55] you guys will probably have done if you're in London as well. Most of the people on it are not

[00:13:59] like that at all. Do I think protest organisers may need to do more to police internally these

[00:14:07] protests to try and keep those people out? Well, yeah, in theory I do, although it's

[00:14:11] not an easy thing to do. So I do feel for them in that regard.

[00:14:16] And protests almost always like that. You have extremes within whatever happens. But

[00:14:20] I suppose the other thing you're saying is that in a way the tension that this is getting from Richeson Act, but also from Keir Starmo, who seems to have been

[00:14:28] tearing himself into small pieces to try and get the exact wording on a resolution,

[00:14:33] that actually they don't need to be doing that, that that is a distortion, because most

[00:14:37] people aren't that exercised.

[00:14:39] Right, because they're answering their own parties rather than the public, isn't it?

[00:14:43] They're trying to keep their party together because their party in both cases, their parties

[00:14:47] are divided on this issue.

[00:14:48] Yes, that's exactly right.

[00:14:50] It's not as if either Starmer or Sunak have an option to remain silent on this issue because

[00:14:57] of the problem of party management.

[00:14:58] I mean, it would be it would be in like brutally frank, which we can be because we're not politicians, we could say,

[00:15:05] well, the amount of difference it makes, what position Kia Starmer takes or even Rishi Sunak

[00:15:11] takes with regards the conflict in in Gaza is the square root of nothing really because it's not

[00:15:18] going to affect the behavior of Hamas. It's not going to affect the behavior of the Netanyahu

[00:15:23] government. It's not as if the Netanyahu government, if they were to receive a very strongly worded email from Kiyastama,

[00:15:30] we'll hold their hands up and go, oh, actually, it's a fair cock gov, we'll stop now. This is

[00:15:34] not going to happen. So all of this is really symbolic politics, but it's nonetheless important

[00:15:40] despite being symbolic politics, because the Jewish community in Britain care very much what

[00:15:46] position both Labour and the Conservatives take on this, the Muslim communities of Britain care very

[00:15:51] much what position everybody takes on this. This is the politics of symbols and narratives, it's not

[00:15:57] the politics of substance. Nothing is going to be changed by these outcomes, that doesn't mean they

[00:16:01] don't matter. So I can't imagine Kia Starmer writing a sharply word to

[00:16:05] email about anything at all to be quite well. But I mean, if it

[00:16:09] is a case of just satisfying the population who feel

[00:16:12] passionately about this, then it's curious, isn't it? Because

[00:16:15] if you just look at the Shia numbers, you'll be saying, well,

[00:16:17] okay, there's a lot more much bigger Muslim population than

[00:16:21] there is a Jewish population in the UK. If we're going to take

[00:16:24] a side on this, and it seems like we have to, you'd be taking the side of the, you know,

[00:16:31] you'd be supporting the action. Well, not Hamas necessarily.

[00:16:36] Yes, you'd be more pro one side of the argument than the other, apparently in terms of numbers.

[00:16:42] But I suppose Rob, the point is it's not that, is it? It's to do with the way

[00:16:46] Britain is now the number of these people within society, but how we perceive what's going on in

[00:16:51] Gaza. But why is it a huge election issue? Is it going to be a huge election issue in the general

[00:16:57] election? Is it possible it's going to be a major thing? It doesn't seem very likely.

[00:17:02] No, in short, I really don't think it will be.

[00:17:05] For two reasons, firstly, as I mentioned before, if we look at all the polling on what issues are

[00:17:10] most important to voters in general, it's not really on the list at all. We actually have two

[00:17:15] polls of Muslim voters specifically taken since this conflict began. And in both cases,

[00:17:21] the conflict is the fourth most important issue. Now that's higher than it is

[00:17:25] with the public as a whole but it's way behind the NHS, the cost of living and the economy, the kitchen

[00:17:31] table issues. So there's no reason to think that all of those voters saying that are lying to

[00:17:38] pollsters and actually secretly they really care about the guards of conflict and that's how they're

[00:17:42] going to cast their vote. So that's reason number one. But reason number two, as you've mentioned, the Jewish community is not really

[00:17:48] big enough to be decisive in any but two seats, I think in the whole country. And even then you

[00:17:55] have to make some pretty generous assumptions to say they'll be decisive. The Muslim community is

[00:17:59] bigger, but it concentrates in seats where there are absolutely colossal labor majorities.

[00:18:05] And I've tried crunching the numbers on this.

[00:18:07] And you can bend over backwards to be generous to Galloway-type independence or Galloway-aligned

[00:18:15] candidates and say, well, what if they got 50% of the Muslim vote?

[00:18:19] What if they got 50% of the Muslim vote?

[00:18:21] Nothing.

[00:18:22] Nothing.

[00:18:23] There is no consequence. Labour will still win all of those seats because even if they have a lower than average swing to them in those seats, because these are seats where they have a massive majority swing amongst numbers and voters in those seats. You've got an election campaign where Labor have a 20-point lead in the polls,

[00:18:49] and you're talking about seats where they won with massive majorities

[00:18:54] at a time when they were getting an absolute thumping in 2019.

[00:18:58] There's an awful lot of claims being made about how, oh yeah, Labor really needs to worry.

[00:19:04] We're street in East O'Reilly. It really needs to worry, no they don't.

[00:19:07] So is it then perhaps, Rob, really? Something to do with a sort of internal psychodrama

[00:19:11] in labour? Because obviously it's not that long ago when anti-Semitism was again a massive

[00:19:17] issue in the core.

[00:19:18] Very touchy about it, obviously.

[00:19:20] Is that what's going on in a way that the Kia Starmer just knows that is toxic and he

[00:19:24] needs to address it?

[00:19:25] I think that is a big part of what is going on here is that really this is about factional

[00:19:34] divides but also symbolic divides and identity divides within the Labour Party.

[00:19:41] I think there are a lot of Muslim voters in Labour who do genuinely feel that

[00:19:47] Labour doesn't represent them as well as they could. There is a long-standing issue I think with

[00:19:54] Muslim communities feeling that Labour kind of put them on the margins a little bit like this.

[00:19:58] And so then this becomes like a, this issue becomes a vehicle for expressing that more general discontent.

[00:20:05] That's something that you see Galloway being very effective at exploiting, for example.

[00:20:10] But there's also, we know, a second issue here, which is the Jewish community was deeply

[00:20:16] upset with labour under Corbyn because of the endless, seemingly anti-Semitism scandals

[00:20:23] that occurred during that period. And where

[00:20:26] those two issues come together is that we do know that a section of the radical

[00:20:32] left, the hard left, so to speak, that is where a lot of the anti-Semitism

[00:20:36] accusations have come from. And that tends to be a group that is extremely

[00:20:40] noisy and vocal in its support for the Palestinian cause as well.

[00:20:45] So on both sides, what you might call the Labour left and the Labour right,

[00:20:49] a lot of these accusations being thrown backwards and forwards are as much about

[00:20:52] factional politics as they are about the conflict out in the Middle East.

[00:20:57] There is much about the conflict between Kia Starmer and Jeremy Corbyn as the conflict between

[00:21:02] Hamas and Benjamin Netanyahu. So there's a lot more going on there than just this conflict.

[00:21:08] So let's take the Jewish factor out of all of this for the moment.

[00:21:11] We can put it back in again in a second, but just imagine there's a part of the world where

[00:21:16] tens of thousands of people are getting killed and people feel as though that is not right,

[00:21:21] even though it is a response to a circumstance that they also believe is not

[00:21:25] right and as horrific. And so they want to go and protest in that because they want to have,

[00:21:29] they feel like they want to have some influence on that. And they feel like if they can have

[00:21:34] influenced politicians might write that strongly worded email that might have some impact. And

[00:21:39] you know, we're already seeing in the United States, for example, you know, the vice president is

[00:21:43] over there at the moment trying to negotiate a peace deal. So the tide has turned more in America than it has in this

[00:21:50] country, it's fair to say, even though they don't have a bigger Muslim population.

[00:21:55] So it's not really necessarily a Jewish, anti-Jewish thing, is it? It's really just

[00:22:01] a here something that we feel like we can have some influence over. So if that is the factor, if that is what most people are on those marches

[00:22:09] are believing, to have the Prime Minister saying, well, actually, no, that, you know, what you're

[00:22:13] fighting for there is hostile to our views and our values. And you've got no respect

[00:22:17] for our democratic traditions. It seems a curious stance to take. Because for most people,

[00:22:23] this is that they just want to do good. Well, I agree. This is why I feel that the speech contradicted its own premise,

[00:22:30] because I think it's one thing to say that we don't want people going on these marches promoting

[00:22:38] hate. I think that's a completely justifiable stance. But to frame the marches themselves as being primarily about that,

[00:22:46] I think is really very unfair on the people going on these marches. Most of those people

[00:22:51] are either pursuing, you know, a political goal in a legitimate political way,

[00:22:56] or simply very, very upset and distressed about this issue and looking for a collective way to

[00:23:02] express that upset and distress and both of those

[00:23:05] are completely legitimate things to do. It's also not very long ago that we had this exact argument

[00:23:14] in the run up to the Remembrance Sunday ceremonies and we had Suella Braverman who was not one of

[00:23:24] And we had Suella Braverman, who was not one of Olatix's great diplomats, making claims about how

[00:23:29] what she seemed to regard as illegitimate forces in the public

[00:23:33] were going to hijack the Remembrance Day ceremonies.

[00:23:38] And that proved to be an accurate forecast, but not in the way

[00:23:41] she expected, because it wasn't the marches angry about

[00:23:45] Gaza who hijacked the Remembrance Sunday. It was a bunch of tanked up, unpleasant,

[00:23:52] far-right thugs who attempted to storm the senator. The EDL, I thought was not.

[00:23:56] And she stood up by what the home secretary had said.

[00:23:59] Yeah, so they say what we're saying is the government is actually

[00:24:02] spreading more division than curing.

[00:24:05] But maybe that is in itself interesting, Rob, because within the Tory party, I mean, you've

[00:24:09] mentioned how Rishi Xionek perhaps was trying to address particular audiences within his

[00:24:14] area, but there's been a lot of accusations of Islamophobia within the Tory party and

[00:24:20] they continue to be there and it goes back a very long way. Is that a real problem, in fact, that this is perhaps channeling something

[00:24:28] which appeals to certain audiences that maybe the Tories wouldn't want to confront,

[00:24:32] but actually are there where there is strong Islamophobia?

[00:24:35] Well, I think Saeeda Vasi put this very well.

[00:24:39] She said that the Conservatives were absolutely unstinting in their attacks

[00:24:44] on Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party

[00:24:47] for tolerating anti-Semitism, for indulging anti-Semitism, for failing to call out anti-Semitism

[00:24:53] by name. And she said, if those are the standards we set, we have to live by them, and we aren't.

[00:24:58] And what happened a few weeks ago when Rishi Sunak expelled the Anderson was, I think, very revealing. He

[00:25:06] went through the whip. He said, what the Anderson said is unacceptable. But then he wouldn't

[00:25:10] say what it was that he'd said that was unacceptable or what the nature of it was that was unacceptable.

[00:25:15] And clearly he'd briefed all of his ministers to do the same thing because there was this

[00:25:19] series of ludicrous, surreal interviews where you had ministers of our government saying,

[00:25:25] we have removed the whip from this man. What he said is unacceptable. Why is it unacceptable?

[00:25:30] What he said is unacceptable. But why is it unacceptable? It's unacceptable.

[00:25:35] Why? If you can't explain what is unacceptable about somebody's sentiment,

[00:25:42] well, you just look ludicrous. Why do you think that is?

[00:25:46] Because I notice that Grisie Suneck time and time again uses this line, it's the right

[00:25:50] thing to do.

[00:25:51] It's as though, don't question me, what I'm saying is right.

[00:25:56] So everything else is wrong.

[00:25:59] So is this all part of a deliberate ploy to say, well, okay, don't think about this

[00:26:02] issue too much. We're just right

[00:26:05] on it. I think actually there is an analogy to what happened in the Corbyn years because Corbyn

[00:26:10] was repeatedly and I think perceptively attacked for refusing to condemn anti-Semitism in isolation.

[00:26:17] He always used the phrasing and all other forms of racism. And the reason seems to be because he didn't want to accept a framing

[00:26:26] of the issue in which this was a particular problem. Similarly, it seems Sunak is just

[00:26:32] unwilling to say what it was Lea Anderson did that was wrong because he doesn't want to

[00:26:38] place the spotlight on a particular problem, namely hatred of Muslims or Islamophobia.

[00:26:43] And in both cases, the reason is I think there

[00:26:46] are people who are important to my party who I don't want to be putting on the wrong side

[00:26:52] of a red line over this. And that's a huge problem because the whole point of withdrawing

[00:26:58] the whip from someone like the Anderson is that you're supposed to be drawing a clear

[00:27:02] line and then you're immediately blurring it. It's a big problem.

[00:27:05] So this has been going on forever, obviously, hasn't it? And there's the attitudes towards

[00:27:10] Palestine and Israel is as old as the hills almost.

[00:27:15] Well, since 1948.

[00:27:16] Well, you know, this is old as the hills, as far as I'm concerned. And yet, there's

[00:27:20] a lot of other issues that we've faced, a lot of other examples of discrimination.

[00:27:25] So I mean, there's cases against aggression workers,

[00:27:29] aggression people who've got nothing to do

[00:27:30] with the activities of Putin,

[00:27:32] who are under attack within this country now

[00:27:35] just because they happen to be aggression.

[00:27:37] Before Brexit, Polish workers were getting abused

[00:27:41] for taking our jobs.

[00:27:43] You could find, take any piece of current affairs

[00:27:46] over the last however many decades.

[00:27:48] There's always repercussions, there's always groups

[00:27:52] that are gonna feel victimized by it all,

[00:27:54] but we don't seem to state their case quite as much

[00:27:58] as we do when it comes to anything to do

[00:28:00] with Israel and Palestine for whatever reason.

[00:28:02] It has a much, much stronger pull on this somehow,

[00:28:04] doesn't it?

[00:28:05] Yeah, and I do find that I must admit, puzzling.

[00:28:10] I mean, what is it about this conflict that is so,

[00:28:15] so symbolically powerful for so many people

[00:28:19] in different parts of the political argument?

[00:28:23] And I mean, I must admit, I honestly don't have a good answer on why that.

[00:28:27] I'm sure Jewish people would say it's because there is a slab of the population that are anti-Semitic.

[00:28:34] And this is an opportunity for them to show their true colours.

[00:28:37] And we don't get quite as riled by all those other examples I gave because it's not a Jewish issue. Well, I mean, certainly, for example, the enormous prominence that the Palestine conflict

[00:28:50] has always had on the radical left is really hard to explain unless it's hard to explain

[00:28:59] in terms of the magnitude of the conflict versus any other conflict, however you want to define it, unless you are thinking that they are in some way singling out Israel as uniquely bad, as an aggressor

[00:29:15] in this conflict, or indeed uniquely aggressive and so on. So there certainly does. And this was of course what an awful lot of the arguments over anti-Semitism were about is when does the line get

[00:29:32] cropped? Why is Israel held to this seemingly higher standard? Why are conflicts involving it seemingly given more prominence? And be at what point does criticism of Israel as a democracy that we want to

[00:29:48] be holding to certain standards in terms of its behavior creep over into criticism of it as a

[00:29:53] Jewish state and then into criticism of Jews? And you know, we see this over and over again. So,

[00:29:58] there's been a big argument with regards to these marches about the the chant from the river to the sea. I was briefly

[00:30:07] embroiled in this on Twitter because I foolishly said that I think well that's not, if you're

[00:30:13] looking to persuade people that's possibly not the best way to do it and the awful of the people

[00:30:17] who got very angry in my replies and said how dare you criticize this chant it's perfectly

[00:30:21] legitimate it's just an expression of a desire for unity of all the

[00:30:27] people that live in Palestine. I think maybe a few people are thinking it that way.

[00:30:32] That would be very twisted interpretation.

[00:30:33] Yeah, I mean, when you look at some of the people who are chanting it, they don't look like people

[00:30:37] who are eagerly calling for unity between all the peoples of the Middle East.

[00:30:43] They're not there for nuanced debate, that's what you're saying.

[00:30:45] Clearly, a lot of people use that chant to mean

[00:30:48] Palestinians should have this line and the G should be out of it.

[00:30:52] The fact that that is,

[00:30:54] I abundantly, clearly true for a lot of the people using the chant,

[00:30:58] it's clearly how it's received by Jewish people.

[00:31:01] And nobody using this chant or defending it seems to care a

[00:31:05] jot about the first two things. I mean, it is problematic, isn't it?

[00:31:08] It is.

[00:31:09] It's a weird thing. I mean, it's what you were, I was thinking when you were saying about

[00:31:13] how labor has this massive problem. But anti-Semitism, historically, of course, has much more been

[00:31:19] a feature of the right. There was a certain point, I mean, up until the 60s when it was a standard thing that

[00:31:26] the Labour Party was very much in support of Israel, these things seem to have changed quite

[00:31:31] dramatically in the last 30 to 40 years. Well, I think there's a couple of things I think

[00:31:35] are interesting about this. I mean, the first is if you look at the survey evidence on this,

[00:31:42] anti-Semitism is still on balance more common amongst people who consider

[00:31:47] themselves on the right. But you get it amongst supporters of all parties. What is closely

[00:31:52] attached to though is thinking like authoritarianism, conspiratorial thinking, deep political

[00:32:00] disaffection and so on. And the reason is because I think antisemitism is unusual as a form of

[00:32:07] prejudice, if you will, because it's got a narrative associated with it, which is to do with

[00:32:13] conspiratorial elites, shadowy forces controlling the world and so on. And that kind of argument

[00:32:20] finds a very receptive audience on what you might call the hard right, the far right,

[00:32:25] the radical right, but it also finds a very receptive audience on the hard left, the far

[00:32:30] left.

[00:32:31] Because both of those groups of people tend to be people who say, we don't get to have

[00:32:35] the good things in life because there are powerful forces that stop us.

[00:32:40] Why doesn't Jeremy Corbyn win?

[00:32:41] Because powerful forces are stopping him from winning.

[00:32:43] Why don't we get socialism? Because powerful forces are conspiring to stop it.

[00:32:47] Why do we not have a powerful and resurgent nation?

[00:32:52] Because powerful globalist forces are stopping it.

[00:32:55] So it's a unique form of prejudice

[00:32:57] in that it combines prejudice against a group.

[00:33:00] With assigning that group a kind of central role

[00:33:03] in a sort of conspiratorial narrative.

[00:33:05] So do you think that's the case that there are people who are thinking, yes, that the

[00:33:09] Jewish population or parts of the Jewish establishment are behind all of this?

[00:33:15] I mean, that seemed, I know that might have been the thinking perhaps 20 or 30 years ago,

[00:33:19] but do you think that's still a belief held by some people. Obviously not the vast majority. I think there's no doubt of it.

[00:33:26] I think it's an argument, like I say,

[00:33:28] that you see very regularly getting made on the far left

[00:33:32] and on the far right, that there's a shadowy network

[00:33:35] of groups controlling things from behind the scenes,

[00:33:39] very well-resourced, and Jewish people are part of that shadowy network.

[00:33:46] I think that's the support for that argument would be, well, okay, here we've got a situation

[00:33:52] where America keeps on providing support to Israel and Israel is killing a lot of people

[00:33:58] with it and that would be a reason to protest.

[00:34:01] But the candor argument to that is that America is starting to question all of that, aren't they? More, as I said earlier, more than us, they're starting to say, well,

[00:34:08] we've got to lean on the Israel. Well, we can actually have more influence than we do.

[00:34:12] It matters. Well, yeah, I mean, I think the American situation, it's interesting because

[00:34:19] obviously the Jewish population in America is a lot bigger and they are, you know, a very politically well organized group within American politics. So the support for Israel, it's geo

[00:34:30] strategic, it's also about domestic politics to some extent, but it's never been unconditional

[00:34:37] and clearly what has been going on in the recent conflict is it's reaching the point where American leaders are saying, well, this

[00:34:45] is just it is dangerous and destabilizing and just wrong. You're taking this too far.

[00:34:52] You need to back off. Not much evidence yet.

[00:34:58] Not having much much effect so far.

[00:35:00] Yeah. So do you think as we approach the next election then, so if both sides of politics

[00:35:06] just sort of ignored this issue, so you know, I'll just all calm down people, you know,

[00:35:10] less protesting in the street, we've heard what you had to say, no need to say it anymore,

[00:35:15] let's just see how it all sorts itself out. Do you think that, you know, nearly four million Muslims

[00:35:19] living in this country would say, because I'm sure, you know, they've got attachment to,

[00:35:23] it's their people, let's see it as their people being attacked. Do you think they'd just let it

[00:35:28] wash over and say, well, that's fair enough. Actually, yeah, okay, we've had our say.

[00:35:32] Let's move on.

[00:35:33] Now, let's go straight on schools and hospitals and all that.

[00:35:35] Is it really going to disappear as an issue before the next election? I guess if they've

[00:35:38] got no choice because both sides of politics have taken the same stance, they can either

[00:35:43] accept that or move to Rochdale and live there instead.

[00:35:46] Well, I don't think my folks live in the world of stark binaries that people like George Galloway

[00:35:51] inhabit. I think the average voter in Rochdale, and I'm sure Labor will campaign very hard in

[00:35:56] Rochdale, come to the gym at the election because they don't like losing seats to George Galloway.

[00:36:02] If Labor are campaigning in Rochchester and they say, look, obviously

[00:36:06] it's a horrible mess in cards room. We're going to do our best to sort that out. But

[00:36:10] in the short run, what do you care about? You care about the bills you've got to pay.

[00:36:15] You care about the state of the local hospital. You care about the state of the local schools.

[00:36:18] And if you like to Labor MP, you're going to get much better solutions on that. You're

[00:36:22] going to get much better solutions on that. Then you're going to get much better solutions on that. Elector Labour government, you're going to get much better solutions on that. Then you're going to get by electing George Galloway or electing the Conservatives.

[00:36:29] I think the average Muslim voter would turn around and say,

[00:36:32] as indeed someone did in a focus group, I won't.

[00:36:34] They use rather more purple language than I'm going to use now.

[00:36:37] But they basically said, look, while peace is a great thing,

[00:36:40] and peace in the Middle East is a really important goal,

[00:36:43] but I find it hard to make that my number one priority when the town I live in is a dump or they use a rather

[00:36:49] real word. And you know that labour can say we are prepared to commit as you've said to

[00:36:53] Kia Starmer writing a very strongly worded email to Naeja asking please desist or you

[00:37:00] know. A permanent ceasefire or whatever. So it sounds like what you're saying,

[00:37:05] as we wrap up is that really,

[00:37:09] our country is not at war with itself.

[00:37:12] We're not being pulled apart by this issue.

[00:37:16] Are you saying that it's actually being ramped up

[00:37:18] a little bit by politicians for their own game?

[00:37:20] Because that's maybe that's not what you intended,

[00:37:22] but a few things you've said today

[00:37:24] is had me thinking that that's actually what's happening.

[00:37:26] Well, I think some politicians are clearly ramping up their own gain. George, by the way, clearly is.

[00:37:31] Some of the people on the Tory right who've pushed this issue clearly are because they feel it's a

[00:37:37] conversation that's more productive for them than a conversation about the NHS or the state of the

[00:37:43] economy. So they're trying to change the subject to this

[00:37:45] because it's more favourable to rain.

[00:37:47] They feel not necessarily that I think it's a slam-dong

[00:37:49] win for them, but it's just it's less bad.

[00:37:52] But on the other hand, I also think there are a lot

[00:37:54] of politicians and other political activists

[00:37:56] who are engaged in arguments about this

[00:37:58] because they sincerely care about it very much.

[00:38:01] And they can care about it very much

[00:38:03] in terms of the symbolism of it, while

[00:38:05] admitting themselves and their voters admitting to, we can't actually change it. But we still

[00:38:10] care about expressing our values on this. So I think it can be both things. Some people

[00:38:15] are exploiting it. Some people are being divisive. Some people are acting in bad faith. But other

[00:38:20] people in the same arguments that are just trying to express the really strongly

[00:38:26] health feelings of their voters about what is a really, really ugly and messy conflict.

[00:38:32] It is a nasty thing and whether or not we can do anything about it, I suppose it's

[00:38:36] normal that people would feel that way.

[00:38:37] But are we the world's most successful multi-ethnic, multi-faith democracy that is being deliberately

[00:38:43] undermined by forces that

[00:38:45] are trying to take off of that.

[00:38:46] Who you're quoting that.

[00:38:47] I mean, it's extreme stuff though, isn't it?

[00:38:49] You know, it's for saying earlier, you know, why did he do that?

[00:38:51] We'll see how it all plays into the election in one form or another.

[00:38:54] Rob, thank you very much for being with us and giving us a sense of how it's sort of

[00:38:59] who's working and how the political system is responding to it.

[00:39:02] Thank you.

[00:39:03] Cheers, thank you. And next week, well, very different. Yes. So he is Rishi Sunak trying to cut spending as much

[00:39:11] as possible to try and give us a little bit of a bribe to get him through to the next election,

[00:39:16] which of course, he stands every chance of losing. Yes. Meanwhile, the people who actually empty

[00:39:23] our biddens, run our schools, run our social services

[00:39:26] are running out of money. I'm talking about local government, local councils. We've had two or three

[00:39:31] going, technically bankrupt, there's some phrase that they use to say that they are basically have

[00:39:35] basically run out of money. But they are responsible legally for certain services they have to keep

[00:39:41] going. So right now, a lot of them are slashing libraries, any kind of arts funding, anything like this because they have to

[00:39:47] keep the basic services going. And some of them can barely do that. So is that

[00:39:51] because they're not getting enough money or is it because either from rate payers

[00:39:56] or from from local tax these cancel tax sorry yeah they are showing my age

[00:40:00] again. So when left the country they were called rogue payers,

[00:40:05] and then come back at his council tax.

[00:40:06] How could I keep up?

[00:40:07] The money, the answer to the question is yes.

[00:40:09] The money isn't there.

[00:40:10] And the support from central government isn't there.

[00:40:11] And the whole system isn't working.

[00:40:13] And that.

[00:40:13] And yet we have a Prime Minister saying, well,

[00:40:15] they've just got to get rid of all those useless jobs

[00:40:18] in stuff like getting to the provinces.

[00:40:20] Yeah, they ain't going to work.

[00:40:22] There isn't enough in that.

[00:40:23] But we're going to confront that next week.

[00:40:24] We're going to get a sense of, is local government breaking?

[00:40:27] Yeah, and how do we fix it?

[00:40:29] Always look for the answer.

[00:40:30] We'll do that next week on The Y Curve.

[00:40:32] Thanks for listening. Bye.

[00:40:33] The Y Curve.