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[00:00:00] The Why Curve, with Phil Dobbie and Roger Herring. There's a political earthquake coming. The election here could see the conservatives reduced to under 100 seats. A much of that will be down to a party that probably won't win any.
[00:00:15] Reform is the latest version of the Brexit party, formally you keep, and it's likely to draw away a lot of Tory support. It's a party of a new kind, a populist party.
[00:00:26] And populist movements are on the march around the world in Europe, Brazil, the Philippines and the USA, upsetting the old notions of left and right. So what is populism? And how will it change global politics? The Why Curve.
[00:00:41] So here's the interesting thing, the latest polls from political, their polls. Yes, yes. So they got Labour on 44%, Tory on 23% reform. So it's a 13% or a 10% behind. Yes. So it's a 10% gap between them. Go back to the start of December, the Tories are on 25 reform on 8%.
[00:00:59] It's a 17% gap. It's just a few months, they're gone from 17% down to 10%. It's because people are leaving the Tory party in drops and where do you go? Well, if you want to go to the centre, you move towards livedems with Labour.
[00:01:10] And if you still feel that the Tories are not suiting you on the right, then you go to reform. It's essentially that Tories are out of favor in every possible way. So it's reform is, we're talking about populism. Is that because reform are seen as being the populist?
[00:01:25] Well, alternative and people feel as though that they go there, they're going to have a better answer to the, to the ailments of society and life is going to be better with you. I think they promise what they promise because that's how populism works.
[00:01:37] You give people, tell people that are a crisis and you want for them solutions. So this is things are going to get better. And you also don't necessarily have to deliver it, of course. No, no. You can never get seen. You can promise anything you want, really.
[00:01:48] You can say they are so bad at this. Get us in charge and we'll we'll solve the problem. But it's a real phenomenon because you've got them in the UK obviously. What we talked about that, they're coming into power in different parts of Europe.
[00:01:58] Potentially certainly maybe this year in the United States again. They were in power and Brazil. They were in power and the Philippines. I think, you know, it is more of a trend than anything else. And something that the chat tells us something about the direction of modern politics.
[00:02:11] And we had, you know, so we've seen the rise of populism in the media as well. So see channels like GB News and UK TV coming coming not UK TV. What's the other one? Talk TV. It should be true. We're already a very short period of time.
[00:02:25] But yeah, GB News, you know, it's writing the same thing. And Fox News, of course, in the States. So it's a whole ecosystem if you like this and up there. So what's the significance of it? And what does it mean for our politics?
[00:02:39] Turning us now and very pleased to say is, and he not seen the electorate at Brighton University. So Andy, first of all, why is what? In your mind, what is populism? And why is it not more popular? Go ahead. Well, it is popular.
[00:02:53] Well, it is popular, but you would have thought if it was populism, everybody would be in support of it. And yet populism seems to be quite divisive. So why is that? Well, I really like the way that she framed that. I've been questioned actually.
[00:03:07] Let me say a few things about that. Certain people actually use the term popular low-rism, which is sliding those two ideas together. That isn't a concept that's been picked up in the academy, for instance, which is where I am in habits.
[00:03:24] But in terms of what is populism, there is what myself and others have called an emerging consensus around the question what is populism, which has been really heavily debated.
[00:03:37] And there are already different understandings about what it is, and maybe we will come to that in the course of this. Well, give us the kind of working definition that you would use normally. And let me also give what the Oxford dictionary says.
[00:03:53] Because it says, it's a political approach. The strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established and elite groups. That comes from their other elite Oxford dictionary. I don't know, is that good wrong? I think it is for what it's worth.
[00:04:10] The way in which I put it is populism and antagonistic form of politics that pits the people against and adversaries. And what that's actually enabling is an awful lot of scope for very, very different forms of politics. But I think populism has to have all those different features.
[00:04:37] Now the adversary would fit in what you've kind of indicated that the establishment elites, if you have the Latin American history of populism is one of the most pronounced. So that goes back to paranism in the middle of the 20th century. Yeah.
[00:04:59] And the adversary there is the oligarchia or the oligarchia effectively. And as to your question about why isn't populism very popular? Well, that's a little bit of a double-edged sword actually. Because effectively populism is popular, which is why we're talking about it.
[00:05:26] I think the question is why is he not more popular? He would have thought if it was populous than it's approached than everybody would want to be part of it. Everyone would be supporting it and yet they... Yeah, here let me put this out there.
[00:05:41] The kind of circles that you operate in and the kind of circles that I operate in, makes the talk about populism something that's very, very unpopular. So the way in which the term is used is normally a derogatory term.
[00:05:59] It's to try and suggest that politician eggs is a bad politician effectively. And there's people who support as you say it's... ...and I agree with both of those.
[00:06:41] This one kind of a little bit more on the fence on despite the fact that it's kind of quite widely accepted by a Johnson as a populist. So what's the... What's the difference? How are you grouping all of those people together?
[00:06:56] What is the shared characteristics amongst all of them? I guess you get back to your definition at the end. Here I might go into some of the different understandings that have been proposed to populism. And the most predominant one is to claim that populism is an ideology.
[00:07:14] And that's associated with a figure called Casmeida. What that effectively means is that there is some readily identifiable content, policy content for instance. That you would want to align with somebody that you're claiming to be a populist.
[00:07:36] I reject that understanding and I will use several different alternative ways of characterizing populism. It's a style of dem politics, it's a form of politics. It's a logic of the political, it's a discourse of politics.
[00:07:57] And isn't it actually really a common when we're talking about it as a modern phenomenon perhaps? But actually isn't all politics at root populist. If you think of the rise of the Labour Party at the beginning of the 20th century,
[00:08:10] it was against in your terms the ruling classes, the bosses. If you think of conservatism rising, it was against certain forms of change, which they felt were something to do with the establishment. You can trace every political movement back to a form of populism, can you?
[00:08:26] What your saying there effectively, Roger, is that politics is necessarily antagonistic. And it just kind of take those antagonisms, just take different forms. Well, let me say a couple of things on that. The first one relates to your claim about it going back earlier to the modern politics.
[00:08:49] I would probably reject that. And that there are earlier kind of proto populist forms of politics, which you might call plebian politics. So you can trace that back to the period of the Roman Republic when the Tribune of the plebs emerged in order to...
[00:09:09] Rebs being the common people. Yeah, in order for the common people to assert themselves against the Senate and the on the Garcicle kind of... ... matter of genes. But two things in terms of what you'll say about it all politics is populist politics or at root populist politics.
[00:09:29] Firstly, populism doesn't have monopoly on antagonism or antagonistic politics. And secondly, populism doesn't have an monopoly on the people. In terms of antagonist politics, there are many forms of what are your non-popolis antagonist politics. Structures the suffragettes for instance. But you wouldn't say the suffragettes were populist.
[00:09:55] Now I wouldn't because it was never conducted in the name of the people. It was always conducted over a very specific cause, which was getting women to vote. They kind of tactics that they pursued in order to get the vote.
[00:10:12] And then you would quite legitimately characterize this kind of anti-establishment type politics. I would also call many socialistic or politics that have been done in the name of the work and class, or if you'd rather call it the proletariat.
[00:10:31] Those are antagonistic forms of politics, but they're not populist form. So Marxism, Marx's Revolution would not be a populist thing in your term. No, no. But why? Because we always think of populism as being to the right. So why is that?
[00:10:50] If it's antagonistic, you would have thought, and you are fighting against the establishment, you would have thought there'd be a natural leaning to the left of anything. Well again, I'm going to say the two things that I can say on that effectively.
[00:11:04] If you go back into history, most of what have been identified as earlier episodes of populism, they are of the left effectively. So I've mentioned perinism that was the first populism in power. And that was largely a leftist project. There's some ambiguity there.
[00:11:29] But if you go back to one of the earliest kind of identified forms of populism, where in fact the term populism was first years. And that was the people's party of the United States,
[00:11:44] which I think still is the largest third party since the Democrats and the Republicans established. Just take a sentence there, because I don't think many people would know about the popular party. When was that? What had it been? It was in the 1890s.
[00:12:01] And they kind of emerged as a significant force almost overnight. And there was enormous passion about them. They kind of burned and faded quite quickly. I think that probably says something about populism effectively is, it isn't really a kind of permanent form of politics.
[00:12:26] It tends to be quite temporary, although what we're experiencing certainly in the UK, but I think you can go more broadly than that. The wider, global north or west if you prefer to use those terms, they've all been having experiences with populism over the last decade or so.
[00:12:49] Here I'll probably go somewhat technical. I think one of the key things about understanding not only populism, but also politics more generally, is to engage with the nation of the Germany and to try and establish what is what I call a hegemonic formation.
[00:13:12] Okay, you've been explaining what you mean by that, because that's... Yeah, I am. In fact, I'm going to illustrate it through a particular example that I suspect we're all familiar with. You know, it's certainly parrot the forever through our lifetimes.
[00:13:29] Roundabout 1979, with Margaret Fatches, Rice to Power, Rice to Power, similarly with Reagan and the United States, you had a hegemonic formation that I can't nearly call financialised globalization. And that was on the march thereafter, and everything was largely conducted within those terms
[00:13:56] that set the agenda of political debate. So I don't think that the Blair project was a substantial departure from the Liberal Financial. So when in 1997 onwards you would say it was a kind of continuation of something that has come into play from that period in the 80s.
[00:14:20] So what's the connection there? So from neoliberalism to this populism. So is populism a revolt against neoliberalism, is that what you're saying? I'm actually using the term neoliberal financialised globalization. So what I think the populist explosion has been about is effectively
[00:14:40] each of the free prongs of those have come under challenge but from different actors, often from populist actors. And certainly within the UK, for instance, I think it's the globalization that has been most prominently targeted. And that might go to explain the Brexit, for example.
[00:15:03] But also for kind of re-emergence of nationalism. Yeah. That we see across the world. Now one of the key things I think to do is that you need to differentiate between populism and nationalism. And what certainly happened with Brexit, I think, was that those two became
[00:15:27] conjoined but I think you do need to analytically distinguish between those two because for instance, I would also call Putin a nationalist. Maybe even a fascist as well. But not a populist. It's interesting, so with the mian just to calculate.
[00:15:50] Because the populism is, as you say, it's antagonistic. It's hard to be a populist of your own power, isn't it? You always got to be out of power to be a populist. Yeah, I mean that's quite interesting.
[00:16:00] It is hard to be a populist but what you can do and I think everyone's done this in Turkey, for instance, is to claim that there's a kind of deep settles establishment or what Trump would call the deep states. Yeah, drain the swamp and the source.
[00:16:20] Yeah, you can stay in power because I'm here to help him to fight against the other powers that are stopping me being in power. Yeah. The people are fighting against democracy and all that sort of stuff.
[00:16:31] So in those circumstances then, so what you're saying is you've got the people who are as they in power, but sort of claiming that they are fighting the power. But overall you see as a general thing, the room's stood in this, the kind of structures
[00:16:44] that were put in place in the West certainly from the 80s onwards. You're seeing the populism really, whether it's in this country or the United States, perhaps or even in some like Brazil and Bolsonaro, is a push back against
[00:16:58] globalisation, the economic norms that were put in place at that point. Yeah, I think that's one of the key components. One thing that I haven't mentioned is that populism thrives within a crisis. And I think that what I call a harmonic formation of neoliberal financialised
[00:17:16] globalization went into crisis in 2008 effectively. It wasn't because of the financial crisis, we're talking about the big, yeah. And so you get the rich who aren't suffering in the poor, suffering a great deal. So it becomes the wide-neighory poor gap really doesn't it?
[00:17:30] Well, I mean that has happened beforehand but what becomes difficult is for the proponents of that form of politics to say there is no alternative for instance. And the medicine is working, et cetera, et cetera. More and more of the public of the people actually depart from that
[00:17:53] and start searching for alternative frames of approaching politics. And I think we're still very much in that scenario at the moment. I'm seeing a very strong historical parallel here and if I just had a draw it,
[00:18:09] which is with the interwoire in the 20s and 30s because a lot of people explain what happened then as a financial crisis leading to populism with the kind you're talking about that produced fascism and Naziism amongst other things. Is that the right parallels?
[00:18:27] I would say what certainly happened in the 1929 and the Wall Street crash and the ensuing financial crisis which then led on to things like austerity and you can see the parallels with the more recent age there is there
[00:18:45] was a kind of delayed reaction to 1929 which in the UK came in 1945. It came much early in the United States with a new deal, initially. And they managed to resolve it and in fact the new deal was informed
[00:19:03] to a considerable extent by some of the policies that the people started of the 1890s that I've already mentioned were advocating. But I'm not so sure that you could characterize the rise of the Nazis for instance as being an upside-up populism.
[00:19:23] I think there was certainly a crisis at that particular historical moment but I don't think there was too much populism going on there. I which I mean precisely about putting the people against an adversary and elite the establishment during that particular point of time.
[00:19:46] I think it was done far more precisely by the Nazis and by slightly different. So they added that investor you reckon is important because those ways would be that you had a charismatic leader, a saint to say who was there at a time when people
[00:20:07] were suffering, who was basically saying, well, you know, vote mean and I will lead you to a better world, to a better Germany. And I will defeat the forces that have kept you there, the dark state, the war swamp, whatever you want to call it.
[00:20:22] Yeah. And there's nasty migrants and Jewish people and then it's and he won people over on that. So but there wasn't a political adversarial such which you're saying is the important component. Yeah. I'm not sure that there was such a thing as a kind of an establishment.
[00:20:43] The core thing that hit it was saying was that things were failing and I can step in and make things better. So where we are now, I mean, I'm just wondering whether Rishi Sunak is almost becoming a populist
[00:20:56] leader even though he's in power because he's trying to push if we think that without that adversary component. I mean, he's pushing people's buttons isn't it? I mean, it's I've done and who got just not done this but I've done a bit of
[00:21:07] talk back radio in Australia. So and it's, you know, there's a formula there. You just what is it that people are feeling? What's the hurt and who can you blame? And so you talk about immigration, you talk about the liberal elite.
[00:21:19] You probably probably talk about trans people, you show out woke obviously woke people that changing the values of society and obviously cyclists and now people who drive electric cars, all the other, all the other society that
[00:21:31] will get the phone ringing sadly and politics is doing exactly the same things. What is it that people are upset about because either they haven't got it themselves or they feel as though they're trapped in their position by
[00:21:43] somebody else who is either doing better or is stopping them getting ahead. I mean, that's the key, you know, they're the buttons you want to press aren't there is a politician just come and say, well, okay, Johnny Farrin is taking your jobs away
[00:21:55] vote for Brexit or stop them coming in. This government hasn't stopped them coming in. Vote for us, we'll do it. It's sort of like failure to tackle those things which is the reason why the reform party is taking so many votes away from the Tories in the moment.
[00:22:09] What you've just listed there sounds very familiar if you've been paying tensions, it politics over the last decade or so. One of the things about the concept party and populism that I suppose I'd depart from others is it becomes quite difficult for them, for instance,
[00:22:29] to claim that they're acting in the name of the people against the establishment because the concept party tend to want to be viewed as upholding the establishment as upholding continuity with the past. So that's stronger, strong and stable government.
[00:22:50] You know, they're back to the, yeah, deliver that continuity with the past. So one of the things about Boris Johnson, if you actually have a look at the way in which he framed his language, he never actually said that I'm going to mobilize the people
[00:23:07] against the establishment for instance when he peribe Parliament, it certainly was the people versus Parliament. But it wasn't a kind of sustained attack in the way in which Nigel Farage has done that. And the elites at Farage targeted was obviously the EU, but it wasn't just the EU.
[00:23:35] It was the political class in Westminster who were facilitating the EU's expansionary project. And it doesn't matter on your background, you can be anti elite well being elite yourself it seems coming because Farage, you know, who is a soldier, who went to a private school
[00:23:50] yes, same with Trump obviously Richard Tice comes actually comes from Farnam. But the trained horses and, you know, grandfather's a property that he went to a private school. I mean, these are all what we call the elite who are there on the people who are the
[00:24:05] people who are the arguments in the way that they need to. And the thing on the side is how far does he go? You talked about previous moments in the past where this has been a surge of populism in one form or another with this caravan.
[00:24:17] It has seemed to been going on for a while. We can drape it back here, I suppose, to the Brexit campaign perhaps. Do you see this as a major systemic change coming down the line, perhaps a change of us
[00:24:29] talking about right and left wing politics and the way we have or the labour split as before? Or is it just something that comes and goes a bit like the people's party we're talking about in the US?
[00:24:40] Yeah, I mean, there is a little bit of a debate can on about that as to whether we've entered into what many people call Pam a populism. The whereinic, the kind of situation in which politics, flourish is, populist forms of politics, flourish is or whether it's kind of
[00:25:00] cyclical, which I was kind of referring to in terms of the people's party. Kind of emerging having quite a profound impact for a limited period of time and then going away quite quickly. Which do you think it is? Do you think it, what's your saying?
[00:25:17] I find it quite difficult to actually analyse actually and to come down to a kind of position on that particular debate because one of the reasons why I'm saying that populism doesn't have a monopoly on the concept
[00:25:34] of the people and appeal to the people is there are different appeals to the people. The people is the most appeal to political subject. And a very different non-populistic understanding of the people is that the people
[00:25:52] and the establishment or the elite are as one with one another and the elite or the establishment works alongside and on behalf of the people. And that's broadly the Conservative position as far as I can understand it.
[00:26:12] The other thing to mention is populism and crisis and maybe to get a little bit deeper into this I was having a look at some of your early Arab states from this year and let me list a few of the titles of your episode just within 2024.
[00:26:32] Democracy in crisis, the Red Sea crisis. Broken Britain can't be amended. Generation game, why do you mean as a cheating? We're a populist podcast. Is that what you say? I'm not actually saying that but what I am saying is that we are in quite severe crisis
[00:26:56] and I've been, it's not an acute crisis, it's chronic. That's where we are and I suppose my answer to your earlier question would be to be as long as this fence of crisis continues than I think populism or continue.
[00:27:14] Right, so yeah it's on that then. So there's a need for change clearly isn't that? And so if you're a government like the Tory party and even the Labour party as well saying
[00:27:23] we're strong and stable you in safe hands people will say well we don't want to be in safe hands because we've been in that for a long time and it's not going to get any of us anymore. We're not really in a perpetual crisis, we need change exactly.
[00:27:34] We're stepping any party that whether it's populist or whatever anybody who says well we are for the people and we're going to drive change and we are the adversary to the incumbent government as well.
[00:27:45] But we're just basically what you've been describing so it's not really a surprise, isn't it? No, it isn't. I'm going to make a prediction here which I'm turning off the back of John Curtis. Now if you were strong Curtis of all of just.
[00:28:00] The academic that's most familiar with opinion polling and the M&T and opinion polling, he said that there's a 99% chance that a star McAfman will materialize by the end of the year.
[00:28:15] He also said that he'd be surprised that the conservatives get as much as 150 seats in the next parliament. So I think effectively we're talking about UK politics and the kind of short to midterm.
[00:28:31] We need to focus on what Starmer does wants in power and that's an open question as far as I can say. Well it seems like you know because he's going on the safe ground unless he sort of reverts back to what he promised when he was
[00:28:47] trying to be a part of the party. He's completely moderate to this. It seems like it will be almost like a continuation of where we are now. Because I'm terrified of not making it over. So the populist parties will continue.
[00:29:00] I mean reform, you know, might actually overtake the turies in that case because they'll be seen as being the the adversary. Not against the turies now but against the against Labour. I wouldn't write off the concept of party in a hurry.
[00:29:12] They've been with us for 300 years and been in power for about 2-3rds of that time. So they are extremely resilient. I suspect they'll have a difficult next parliament but they'll come back.
[00:29:28] They always do and I think reform is a little bit of a distraction effectively at the moment. But on the other hand we may be in a position at the end of this year where in the United States there is a very powerful populist administration
[00:29:45] rather than more extreme in many ways I guess than what we see here even potentially from reform. Yeah. Well that set the political temperature and climate quite dramatically globally. Yeah. I mean that that will shift things and often lots.
[00:30:02] I would again claim that it would probably shift things far more in the direction of nationalism. So if we look at to current international geopolitical events, it probably will be a sucker for Israel, for instance.
[00:30:22] And it will be a sucker for Putin and against Ukraine if that materializes those the two immediate factors. You might see further cranking out of hostilities with China which is certainly so on as first China. So does that fall into populism because that sort of like,
[00:30:43] Well yeah. I'm looking back at the populist party that we're talking about in the 1890s, some of their policies they wanted a ban foreign land ownership so we're there. In the United States so they're again a sort of like a more nationalistic approach.
[00:30:58] We don't want foreign involvement in our land. State control of the railways you know which is what Labour Party, you know most people would like the Labour Party actually to do.
[00:31:08] Simious they're not working currently and shorten work days which you know so they actually you know we assume would be sort of more Labour party rather than other equivalent. So those are the 30 policies. Those aren't policies of an incoming Trump administration.
[00:31:22] No, you're not even saying it's the same. Yeah, to try and make the point they're back in those days it was very much you know for the people and what you'd consider being left leaning policy by and large.
[00:31:31] Definitely something else that you've raised earlier, there are come back to it. I think most people's understanding of the left and the right need to change from what they are. And in fact I'm due to be right in the bulk of on this as well.
[00:31:53] But it's a long way off. You're going to be handrails. I mean, you may have a lot of crannies in it one way or another.
[00:32:00] Yeah, I think the problem understanding of left and right if you have a look at the political compass, I don't know if you two have done the political come up.
[00:32:09] Personally no but we may get to that point what that presents is a grid effectively and on the horizontal access. There is the contrast between the right and the left. And hopefully they call it the economic. So what they effectively want the right to be is free market.
[00:32:35] You know and no all very minimal state. What the left is is basically that the state conducts everything within the economy, according to that understanding. Now on the on the vertical grid there's authoritarianism versus libertarianism. And I suppose can put simply.
[00:32:58] I claim that the right and the left have kind of merged those two features into one another. And far more such that it becomes far more difficult to identify the rights and the left screw either. The idea of those two actions and it's come there.
[00:33:19] Those actually is a complicated further by the fact that economists for example, wouldn't agree what a free market is. Yeah, and how it operates so the so much complexity and all of that exactly and the idea of the been a completely free market with the state is.
[00:33:39] In order to ensure that the contracts that operate within the market are enforced. So even the kind of greatest free market theorist, which is a guy who Robert knows it recognized the the necessity of a minimal state.
[00:34:01] I mean he thought it was a kind of quite harsh past state. It was a very, very small state. I mean you need to generate money somehow. Yes, we just got the same amount of money floating around with that expanding.
[00:34:15] That free market is going to dry up pretty quickly as well. But anyway, we're going off at the tangent. We are rather than we just we need to draw this discussion to close.
[00:34:22] I'm afraid, Andy bit, but essentially what I'm drawing from this is a sense that you think it is. There's there may be a moment of more profound change happening. It is maybe more than purely a cyclical move towards populism, surging in the West. Is that right?
[00:34:39] Yeah, I mean well, all I can say is that the core principles associated with what I call the prior hedge amon formation. Which I've called nearly real financialised globalization no longer work and there was a prior.
[00:34:56] Transformation from what I call the personal consensus or cynicism or social democracy. You know, basically it's assisted from round about 1945 or from the early 1930s and the United States up until the 1970s when there was this shift into the new framework.
[00:35:21] And I think that there are multiple crises. There's an economic crisis which is our renderer isn't it in the quality crisis. There's environmental crisis, there's also what I call the representational crisis which is a slow burn in effect in which is not only about politicians being less trusted,
[00:35:47] which has been given on since the 1960s but also a representational crisis, the media effectively. Which I'm a YouTube of both operated in the media. It used to be a kind of one to many type delivery whereas now we have hot cast such as the white curve.
[00:36:07] For instance, so there's kind of new one to less than many. But yeah, it's interesting as you say, series of crises pushing it into a very different way of dealing with things.
[00:36:23] And whether they can be resolved and how they can be resolved is a kind of interesting question but I suppose my core claim is that they can't through the kind of mechanisms that have been pursued from 1979 onwards.
[00:36:41] But if the problems all started, if we started to have this crisis with just for an economic point of view, the neoliberal approach, and I'm at the sense that the tax here, if that's part of the problem, I think it's personally, I think it is.
[00:36:57] The revolution is not going to come from the people who are challenging the government currently because they are people who largely were Margaret Thatcher supporters. Probably have read all Milton Friedman's books. They would be, they would be part of the problem.
[00:37:09] What are you talking about within the UK, I was talking about reform there. Yeah, again, I'm coming at neoliberal financialised globalization and what reform basically targeting is the globalization aspect via nationalism.
[00:37:27] But it's not the other crisis that I think we're going through at the moment is an identity crisis which is coming from both sides. Kind of coming from both sides effectively.
[00:37:39] The reformist, right in certain wings of the conservative party are ones and two insists that we have a kind of settled stable identity which would be that we're British, for instance.
[00:37:55] Whereas you've got all sorts of different developments going on as a result of, for instance, the rise of LGBTQI plus. And note that keeps on getting extended, for instance. But also, you've added plus on the idea, you don't need to add it.
[00:38:16] Yeah, so we're running out of time now. We're adding, we are ending it to a whole other discussion, but you need to add it to the crisis. Yeah, I'm going to keep doing that with that one to several media models that you're talking about.
[00:38:56] Good talk Andy, we'll catch you. You'll soon again hopefully. Thanks, Roy. Roy, thank you. And interesting is saying that Putin is not a populist. Yes, and Hitler wasn't, let's put them both in the same sentence. We can safely do that, and I don't wait these days.
[00:39:10] So I'm going to tell you something. But I mean, he wasn't a populist either. And yet, you know, they're all about, well, how can we retain control by doing stuff that we think will make us more powerful? I'm breaking the rules. Well, that big, I think.
[00:39:24] A big sucked, which of course, pop it if so much more able to do or indeed nationalists in this case. But you mentioned Hitler, you mentioned Putin some people. Well, particularly the Polish-Polish government Donald Tusk, the Polish Prime Minister has been talking about this being 1939.
[00:39:37] He says that what's happening in Ukraine is getting to the point where there could be a country. Where there could be a collapse if there is and the Russians move in very fast.
[00:39:46] He says this is the point of which the growth and expansion that Putin wants to do will go further. Yeah, everybody needs to be very, very scared. Yep. And how is the United Nations position in all of this as well?
[00:39:59] So Donald Trump comes along and weakens the power of the United Nations. The NATO is the problem because NATO is there, but we'll NATO be fully supported by NATO.
[00:40:07] And that's why, what everyone getting together to say, well, like, perhaps we need to fund more to, because we might have to do with that the United States. We might.
[00:40:17] It's a big crisis and I mean, it's been a big crisis and we've covered it here on the Wikov, but there's a feeling that we are at a moment of potentially very dangerous change. Yeah, feels that way. That's what we're going to look at next week.
[00:40:27] Here on the Wikov, Jonas for that. Thanks for joining us today. Have a great week. Thanks, bye. The Wikov.